Career and Leadership Real Talk
Transcript
Pam:

Hello and welcome to this week's episode.

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We are talking today about how you

can lead when you're lacking clarity.

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We're going to talk about when you're

not getting it from your senior

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leaders and you're wondering, how

do I find this clarity and how can

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I get myself into a position where

I can provide clarity for my teams?

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This is something that Jacqui

covers a lot with her clients.

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And this is something that we cover also

in the workshops that we do throughout

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with the company Catalyst Careers.

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So Jackie, you can kick us off and

talk to us about the importance

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of clarity in leadership.

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Jacqui: So there are a number of

ways that clarity has an impact.

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And the biggest of those probably

is the ability to have focus.

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So a mentor of mine there's a brilliant

phrase that he used that I love,

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and that is clarity is knowing what

you need to do, focus is getting it

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done and clarity has to come first.

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And there are so many

organizations at the moment.

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It feels like a proper epidemic

where people are working their

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asses off, working really

hard and trying to be focused.

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But the piece that's

missing is the clarity.

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If you can have direction and

focus, then you're moving towards

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something rather than trying to

keep absolutely everything spinning.

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And I think that in itself then

has other knock on effects.

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So it has effects on morale and

engagement, because if you can achieve

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the same with less effort, if you

can achieve the outcome that's needed

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rather than have wasted effort,

then that has an impact on morale.

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It has an impact on the level of

stress that people are exposed to.

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It also helps in a lot of other ways.

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So it helps as a leader with things

like accountability and being

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able to delegate effectively.

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If there's clarity on who is making

the decisions, what the priorities are,

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then there is an ability that you have

as a leader to be able to delegate and

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equally for yourself, if you are clear

on how you should be prioritizing.

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Then things can be delegated to you.

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So things can sit at the right level

within the business and the right people

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can be accountable for those things.

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And then it also, as a consequence of

that allows for better decision making

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because there's that understanding

of what are the different factors

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that need to be taken into account

in order to make good decisions.

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So without clarity, all of those

things start to get chipped

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away and start to get crumbled.

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Yeah.

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But I think for me really that the

overarching one, the one that I'm seeing

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the most with my own clients is that

aspect of the level of performance and

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that's then dependent upon being able to

actually be focused and be productive and

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not be constantly stressed and anxious by

trying to do a million and one things when

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in reality the priorities could be clear.

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Pam: And I absolutely

agree with all of that.

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And I was just thinking as you were

talking through that about one of my

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clients recently who came to me because

he was thinking that there's nothing

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else he can learn from his manager.

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There's no clarity.

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It's quite chaotic.

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And he came to me and said, I

just need to get out of there.

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So rather than looking at ways to

gain clarity, rather than having

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those conversations with his manager,

he was just looking to jump ship.

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And I feel like that happens quite

a lot for some of my job search

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clients, because when there isn't that

sense of clarity, when you feel like

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you just you're going in every day.

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And sometimes it can feel

like trudging through the mud.

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Sometimes you just feel like

you're all over the place.

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And.

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Like you were saying, they're

like spinning lots of plates.

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It's really hard, isn't it?

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And I feel like when people get to

a certain point in that situation,

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there's no going back for them.

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They just feel like they just

need to get out of there.

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Jacqui: I love what you said that

the absence of clarity is chaos.

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That in a nutshell is my very

descriptive answer of all the

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reasons why clarity is important and

the big reason is to avoid chaos.

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So yeah, if people are in a chaotic

situation that is stressful,

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it's not easy to deliver and

people want to do a good job.

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So it does not surprise me that

a big driver for people coming to

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you for that job search coaching is

because they need to get away from.

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The chaos.

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And in reality, if you build the skills

of starting to create clarity for yourself

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and for your team from chaos, then

sometimes that is avoidable, but it's

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completely understandable that people

maybe don't have that awareness or that

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understanding of quite how to go about it.

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And the net result of that is

talent gets lost from businesses.

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People move on in search of somewhere

that they can have a bit more of that

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calm ability to focus and more reasonable

workloads that comes with clear

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direction and clear vision being set.

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Pam: Yeah, absolutely.

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So I think probably the next thing

for us to focus on here is really how

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to spot when that clarity is lacking,

because I do feel like sometimes you

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can just feel like you're caught up

in the chaos and you don't really

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know why or what to do about it.

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Whereas, this is a good time to think,

is my work life quite chaotic right now.

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Could it be that we're just

lacking the clarity and the focus?

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So how do you spot when

the clarity is lacking?

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Jacqui: So what we're talking

about here, I think are some of

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the more subtle signs that if left

unchecked, then become that chaos.

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So if you've got chaos, you've probably

got all of these signs, but you could

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equally be on the road towards it.

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So I think in quite quick succession,

we can run through these because

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people will recognize them.

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But if you haven't got the level of clear

direction for yourself and your team, then

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some of the likely signs would include

things like people know what they need

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to deliver, but they don't know why.

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So if you've got people that

seem to be questioning you

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about why do I need to do that?

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Then that can be that there isn't the

understanding of what's behind it.

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So they might have an objective

or they might have a task or a

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project that they're delivering.

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But if they don't have the context of why,

then what that can do is impact some of

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those things we were talking about before.

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So it can mean that they perhaps

aren't in the best place to make the

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decision you would make in that context.

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They perhaps don't have the

understanding of how does that fit in.

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You'll also see that decisions

get deferred upwards.

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So if you are that person

where you're like, why will

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they not just get on with it?

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Why are they not just going and doing it?

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Often that is because people don't

have the confidence that they

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are able to make those decisions.

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And that can be because they don't

know the context in which to make

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the decisions or because they don't

feel confident that they would make

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the same decision you would make.

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And they don't want to

take the flack after it.

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If they make what you consider

to be the wrong decision.

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So decisions deferring upwards is a sign.

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Also people kind of coasting.

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So that lack of engagement piece, it

can be that where people previously

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have been quite engaged, but then

they may be seen as if they're not.

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Posting or drifting or where perhaps

kind of politics or jostling for position

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or bickering is coming into play.

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So those kinds of things can also be

signs that people don't have that kind of

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laser focus and approach to their work.

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You'll also start to see things

like deadlines being missed.

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So you might have, 27 things.

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And in your head, if something if a ball's

got to be dropped, it should be this one.

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But if that's not a shared

understanding and other people don't

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have the same understanding as you,

then deadlines can be dropped on

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things that you feel are important.

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Projects can be really hard to get off

the ground and really hard to keep moving.

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And one of the reasons for that is

that you'll have this situation, and

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again, taking me back to my corporate

days, rehashing the same conversation

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time and time again, in different

meetings with different groups of

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people, different levels, and almost

coming back to the same discussion.

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Even though it's hang on, didn't

we talk about that last week and

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the week before and two months ago?

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And yet it's still a

topic of conversation.

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So all of those things can be signs

that you're needing more clarity.

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For yourself, for your team,

for the organization as a whole.

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Pam: Yeah.

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And it's clear to see when you read

out like that list of things, so

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you talk through that list of things

that it's so easy for people to get

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frustrated in that situation, isn't it?

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Because you in it every day.

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And if those things are happening

consistently, you do just start

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to think, what am I doing?

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I haven't got the energy for this anymore.

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So it's very.

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clear to see why people do start looking

for new roles rather than trying to

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find the clarity in their current role.

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With clarity and trying to find

clarity, sometimes that in itself

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is going to be a challenge.

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So you can spot that it's happening.

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And, when you talk through, All of

those different things that it's you

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can almost imagine those situations.

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Can't you?

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As you were talking to then I was

like thinking, yeah, I remember that

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when I was back in the corporate world

and at the time you don't think that

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it's anything to do with clarity.

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You just, you're just stuck

in that cycle, aren't you?

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So I suppose.

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At the same time, you have got

that level of challenge that you're

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facing as well, along with this.

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In terms of when, when you're feeling,

or if you're listening and you're

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thinking, wow, it's clarity that

I was looking for all of the time.

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It was clarity.

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If you find yourself in this situation

where you are thinking now that we've

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unpacked that a little bit, it is actually

clarity that I need to find for me before

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I can start creating clarity for others.

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What times would you also say that finding

clarity will be a challenge as well?

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Jacqui: So I think there are a number of

situations where it is very normal for

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there to be A temporary lack of clarity.

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And I think it's important that people

don't think that any absence of clarity

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is a terrible thing and a reason to start

looking for another job or moving on.

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So you'll have situations, for example,

where there's organizational change, It

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could be a restructure or redundancy.

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And with that comes changes of roles

and responsibilities, comes changes of

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focus for the organization as a whole.

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And so it's natural that it will take time

for those things to settle and for those

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things to be communicated and cascaded.

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You'll also find it a challenge if

there is kind of some fundamental

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issues with the organization.

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And I think these are the more

challenging types of scenarios.

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So if there's politics at the top level

and there's mixed messaging and there's

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, silos developing where one director

wants one thing and one director wants

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something else and you're caught in the

crossfire, that can be a real challenge.

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It can be that there is a lack of

strategy for the business that the

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people at the top are Either in the

process of developing a strategy.

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And so again, that can be more temporary

or that they've got a strategy that

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is massively failing and they're

not revisiting and recommunicating.

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What do we need to do or change?

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It can also just be.

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pace of change.

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Fast growing and scaling businesses often

operate with an awful lot of ambiguity.

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And because I work a lot with mid

size businesses, I see this where

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leaders have got their first kind

of head of or director role and

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they've, shifted from a bigger

corporate into a smaller organization

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was literally having a conversation

yesterday of people can look around

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and go, okay is this how it is here?

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Is this normal?

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Because there aren't all the same

kind of structures and organization.

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In scaling businesses, that pace of

change, it can be a lot, but also in

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midsize and smaller businesses, the

lack of structure can just be the norm.

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And if you've been used to more clarity

and you come to a situation where

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there's less, that can be tricky.

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Also, If you've got a lot of complexity

within an organization, within a context

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that you're working within, so that can

be related to industry, highly regulated

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industries will have an awful lot of

complexity and an awful lot of things that

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might change outside of the organization

that then have an impact coming back in.

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It can be when you're new to a role.

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And you haven't done all of that learning

piece yet and you need to figure it out.

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And let's be honest.

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It can also be when your boss really

isn't up to it and your boss is quite

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chaotic and they're comfortable with

chaos and they don't see the reason

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or the importance for creating that

clarity for you, or they don't have

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that skill to be able to do it for

themselves so they can do it for you.

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So there's lots of different scenarios

where it can become a challenge.

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And I think the secret to it is

understanding, is this a temporary thing?

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Is it something that I

can live with for a bit?

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Is it something that I

can do something about?

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And if so, what strategies can I pick?

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How can I go about getting the

answers that I need so that I can,

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Be the leader that I want to be.

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So something that I've used

years and leadership development

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workshops is you don't have to be

well led in order to lead well.

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And I think this is the prime example

where don't necessarily always need

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all the clarity that you'd ideally

like in order to still be able to

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create more for yourself and your team.

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Pam: Yeah, I absolutely love that.

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That little quote as well.

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That you don't have to be well

led to, to lead well, because

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you just see it so often.

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The amount of people that we speak

to every single year and it's

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always the same stuff, isn't it?

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That comes up over and over again,

and we know that the companies don't

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always provide the best leadership

training and people get different

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levels of leadership training.

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Some people get thrown in at the deep

end, like there's so many things that

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play in to becoming a great leader.

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And I think, obviously the people

that listen to the podcast, you're

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actively looking to develop your

skills and move forward as a leader.

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And that's great.

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And I suppose one of the key things

with that is It is around, that

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real kind of thought of creating

that clarity for yourself and your

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team and where you start with that.

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And I know you've got some really

good questions that you use to,

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to help people find that clarity.

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So what would you say would be your top

four or five questions that you would ask

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any leader to ask themselves to find that

clarity for themselves and their teams?

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Jacqui: So when people are seeking

clarity, the natural thing, and probably

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what I used to ask when I was employed was

things like, what are your expectations?

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What are my objectives?

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Those kinds of questions where you're

seeking to get that understanding.

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The problem with asking those questions,

particularly if you think about some

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of the scenarios that we've just said

can make it more challenging, if you've

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got a restructure, if you've got a pace

of change, if you've got lots going

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on, if you've got a boss, who isn't

that brilliant at creating clarity.

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Those questions take quite a lot

of time and thought for people

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to give a meaningful answer.

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And so what I really advocate for

people as you, particularly as you

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become more senior, and as you step up

where the expectations of you are less

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clear, is to use different questions.

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So instead, ask things like,

What are your priorities?

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What are the things that you are

finding a challenge at the moment?

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The things I'm seeing are X, Y, and Z.

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Would you say those are the biggest

challenges for us as a business?

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Or would you say these are the biggest

challenges for us as a function?

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And you'll get then, questions

that are easier for somebody

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to answer off the cuff.

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And you'll get that clarity without

them feeling like you're asking a big

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job of them because they don't have to

do all the thought process to draw a

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conclusion, they can either say yes or no.

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If you're saying, is it this,

but also if you're saying, okay,

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what are your biggest challenges?

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What are your biggest priorities?

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What are the things?

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Another one that I think is really

helpful to ask is what are the sort

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of decisions that are in progress at

a senior level that might affect me?

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I don't need to know the discussion,

that might be confidential, but

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what are the things that I need

to have on my radar that might be

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coming down the line towards me?

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And when you ask those kinds of questions,

You almost get the insight and get

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them to start creating clarity without

making it a big job for them to do that.

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And that's why those questions can be so

effective because they don't feel like a

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big job for the person you're asking them

off, but they give you really helpful

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insights to help you build that kind of

context and picture that is maybe lacking.

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Pam: Yeah.

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And I think sometimes as well with

those more common ones, like around

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the objectives and things like that.

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If your manager is somebody that

hasn't got that level of clarity, then

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those questions are probably going to

be a nightmare to them, aren't they?

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Whereas the ones that you've just

described there, they're really

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focused, but a lot softer and

easier to answer, aren't they?

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Because it's more about leaning

into what are the priorities?

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What are the challenges?

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Rather than, what should

our objectives be?

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Because a lot of the time, That isn't

clear, but once you understand what the

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priorities are, and ultimately what you

need to be working towards, then you can

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then create the objectives and things like

that off the back of those conversations.

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What you're effectively doing

there is managing up aren't you?

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Using your influence as a leader

to, to extract that information that

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you need, that's going to help you

gain the clarity and also help you

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provide that clarity for your team

and make your team more effective.

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Jacqui: There's managing up.

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And the other way to use it is to use

some of those types of questions with

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peers and colleagues, because people

often over emphasize the relationship

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with their boss and their team,

so the up and down relationships.

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And don't do enough on that collaborative

relationship with peers at the same level.

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If you ask those types of questions of

some of your colleagues, what you'll

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start to find is that things that maybe

your boss didn't think to tell you

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that you might need to be involved in.

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There may be projects or things that

colleagues are going to need from you.

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So particularly if you're maybe in

more of those kind of head office type

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functions, say you're a marketer or

you're in HR and other people have

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got projects that they do know that

they're going to have to work on.

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There may be things where it's important

for you to have input or where you

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could really add value or contribute.

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If you ask those types of questions

of what are your priorities, what

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are the things that you as a function

are going to be working on, then

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what you can do is with those peer

relationships, you can create the

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opportunity for kind of input or

influence earlier on, as opposed to later.

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An example of this was I remember

working in operations and somebody

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coming in from L& D and they have this

kind of whole project plan for how

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we're going to roll this thing out.

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And then we were sitting

there going, okay, but we've

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also got an IT system change.

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So IT have all got a whole

project plan for how that system

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is going to be rolled out.

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And actually we need to, from

an operations perspective,

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be aware of both of these.

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And we need to think about how do we

deliver our contribution to both projects.

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So even though the projects might be

owned by the function, there will be

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other stakeholders and not necessarily

that you will get to hear about them.

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But if you start to use some of those

questions, you can get a bit more

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foresight and understand what's going on.

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What might be coming down the

line towards you, what might you

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need to plan and prepare for?

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And then again, when you're building your

objectives and when you're building your

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kind of own planning for yourself and

your team, you can have that oversight

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of those types of things as well.

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Pam: Sometimes when you've not got that

clarity, it can be really tempting to

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wait until you've got the clarity before

you start communicating with your team.

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Because I suppose with that, you

probably feel if I just go straight

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into this and, start talking about,

how we find the clarity, or maybe

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you don't want to share that you've

not got the clarity at that point.

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So you stop yourself from sharing

with the team and communicating

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with the team, but that isn't always

the best way to play it, is it?

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Jacqui: No, definitely not.

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I think it's tempting for two reasons.

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One is you feel like

Okay, I'm nearly there.

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It's better to do it once and do it well.

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So I'm better to go and gather

all this information and

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communicate when I've got it.

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But that can underestimate

the impact for other people of

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operating with that ambiguity

for that extended period of time.

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And the other, I think, is feeling

that you should know, and you should

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have clarity and you should have

the answers and be able to present

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the whole thing as a full picture.

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And in reality, as a leader,

that's not always the case.

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There will be times where it's

unavoidable that you'll be operating

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under, ambiguity for a period of time.

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So I would completely agree that

often communicating what you do

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know, you can also at the same time

communicate what you don't know and

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what you're working on finding out.

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You can also then get input from your

team, you can find out what questions do

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they have, what is it that comes up for

them when they're hearing about, these

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:

are the things that I'm not yet sure of.

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So they can then have their questions

answered when you're going and seeking

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:

it, as opposed to you trying to go

to that and present the whole thing.

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:

And then they fire a load of

questions and you still have

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:

to go off and do a load more.

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:

So I think when you set ego aside

and you work collaboratively with

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:

your team, you can be really honest

that I don't have all the answers.

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:

And this is the things

I do have answers on.

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:

And these are the things that I don't.

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:

And what questions have you

and how do we work together?

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:

With the information that we've got and

what that does as well is it gives a

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:

bit of that alert to the fact that maybe

things will change and maybe you haven't

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:

got the full picture as opposed to it

seeming like you're moving the goalposts

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:

by giving a full answer over here and

then suddenly something changes because

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:

you didn't have the full picture, and

then you go down a different route.

387

:

So yeah, I think there's a number

of reasons why it's really helpful.

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Pam: Yeah.

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:

And do you know what, as you were going

through that, you know that my mind

390

:

always goes to interview prep because

all of this stuff, like what you are

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:

talking through there is essentially

like the working out, isn't it?

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:

There's some great examples there

that you could think about, how did

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:

you get your team from A to B, from a

clarity perspective, and you, these are

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:

really good things that you can then

use as evidence in your interviews all

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:

of this stuff where you've took your

team, from, where there was a real

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:

lack of clarity and then you take that

interview through those different stages

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:

where you shared what was going on.

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:

As a leader, when you're thinking about

progressing your career, these things

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:

are so important to just even be really

intentional with what you're doing

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:

and thinking about the processes that

you go through, because when it does

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:

come to those interviews, to go for

those promotions and things like that.

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:

These are the things that you're

going to be talking about.

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:

So if you're thinking about how you

go through these processes and almost

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:

documenting it as you go, what worked,

what didn't work, how will you improve?

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:

It all just adds up, doesn't it?

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:

And helps you move forward.

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:

Jacqui: Absolutely.

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:

And it really helps with getting the

team to buy into you with increasing

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:

engagement within your team.

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:

So there's so many examples.

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:

And if you are looking

at promotions internally.

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:

It really sets you as somebody who

takes the initiative, who works with

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:

what they can and doesn't complain

about what they don't have, but who

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:

really takes that initiative and grasps

it and will go and seek what they

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:

need for themselves and their team,

rather than be passive and wait to

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:

be given clear direction themselves.

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:

They will seek to create what

they and their team need.

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:

Pam: Yeah, exactly.

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:

And I think when you start thinking

of it from that perspective, when you

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:

start being really intentional about

it, it actually gives you a lot more

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:

clarity than you would ever realize.

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:

I think just being really intentional

and Almost like setting out your

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:

stall and just thinking, what do

we need to have in this store?

424

:

What answers do we need?

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:

What do we need to do to be able to set

everything out really well, but being

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:

able to communicate along the way.

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:

I think that is really super helpful.

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:

That advice, regardless of the level of

leader that you are currently, like that

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:

advice is going to help you throughout

every stage of your career, even if

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:

you're not at leadership level just

yet, or even if you're fairly senior,

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:

where you are now this is relevant

isn't it for every level of leadership.

432

:

So I suppose the next stage

for this is to propose and get

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:

buy in for your priorities.

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:

So what is the best way to go about that?

435

:

Jacqui: So once you feel that you have

more clarity from the questions that

436

:

you've asked from the discussions that

you might have had and from reflecting

437

:

on what are the business priorities?

438

:

What do I know?

439

:

What can I see that means it's

going to shape my priorities

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:

and my team's priorities?

441

:

You then create, if you

like, your proposal.

442

:

Okay.

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:

This is my role and this is how I

feel that things need to be done.

444

:

And for me, I remember doing

this years ago where I was asked

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:

to write my own objectives.

446

:

It was the first time I've

been asked to do that.

447

:

I was at a senior leadership level and it

felt a bit weird because I've been used

448

:

to being given objectives from my bosses.

449

:

And the way that I approached

it was to think okay.

450

:

I know that the business priority,

this was way back in the noughties.

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:

It was during the credit crunch.

452

:

We really needed to protect our profit

margins, and we knew that growing

453

:

revenue during the economic situation

that we were in was going to be more

454

:

of a challenge than it had previously.

455

:

The priority then for me from

an operations perspective

456

:

is on reducing cost.

457

:

Where are my biggest cost bases?

458

:

Where are my responsibilities that

hold a higher proportion of cost?

459

:

And where can I seek to deliver

that back and that was how

460

:

I came to that conclusion.

461

:

So I then proposed an objective

of saving a percentage of the

462

:

warehousing staffing fees.

463

:

So we could be more

productive in the warehouse.

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:

We could change some of the

ways that we were operating.

465

:

We could seek to create a cost saving

by doing things more efficiently.

466

:

And that was the kind of thought

process that I went through.

467

:

And that was me just taking, I

know that cost saving is a big

468

:

priority as within operations.

469

:

I've got a number of different cost

spaces that I'm responsible for.

470

:

Where do, where have we not

looked at before for saving costs?

471

:

Where can we create that?

472

:

Okay.

473

:

So I'm going to propose that this is.

474

:

One of my strategic

objectives for this year.

475

:

And I think it's that thought

process and then saying, okay,

476

:

so here's a starter for 10.

477

:

Here are some things that I've

created that I feel are going to be

478

:

the relevant things for me and my

team to deliver if we deliver this.

479

:

Is that what is going to tick your boxes?

480

:

Is that what's going to, so going

way back to what we said about

481

:

asking questions, instead of saying,

what are you expecting from me?

482

:

What are the measures of success?

483

:

What you're saying is I believe what you

need from me is, and the way I'm proposing

484

:

to deliver that is, and you share that.

485

:

And then people can either go yes or

no, they're not always going to say yes.

486

:

They're not always going to agree.

487

:

But just in doing that, you create the

conversation and the opportunity then

488

:

for them to go, Oh, that's not right.

489

:

Okay.

490

:

Why is that not right?

491

:

What have I missed?

492

:

What do I not understand?

493

:

And then you refine and you can go again.

494

:

But what that does is positions you

again, as somebody that takes that

495

:

initiative that steps it up and he's

coming forward and saying, This is how

496

:

I believe I'm making a contribution.

497

:

Is that what you're wanting

and expecting from me?

498

:

Good away I go.

499

:

And I'll make a plan and deliver it.

500

:

Or no, okay, what do you want instead?

501

:

Pam: Yeah, I totally agree with that.

502

:

And I think sometimes as well, it is

about embracing the uncertainty, isn't it?

503

:

And almost using all of these

experiences as a form of training,

504

:

everybody is working towards something,

everybody needs to practice and

505

:

test these different things out.

506

:

And I think by doing that as well, it

will definitely, Increase your tolerance

507

:

for ambiguity and make you feel more

comfortable working in that space.

508

:

And especially if you're in a

position where your boss just lacks

509

:

the capacity or the competence

to provide that clear direction.

510

:

So you might need to stick to some

short term priorities and reassess those

511

:

like fairly often, would you say that

is probably the best way to play it?

512

:

Jacqui: Yeah, if you're finding that

you've done all of those other things and

513

:

there just is no more clarity forthcoming,

then yeah, it's understand that the times

514

:

where you do have to operate there and.

515

:

It is absolutely increasing your skill

set if you're able to do some of that

516

:

thinking, conclude that actually I

can't create longer range clarity, so

517

:

I'm going to focus on the shorter term.

518

:

That's still creating clarity

because it's still saying This is

519

:

what's important for right now.

520

:

These are what the priorities are.

521

:

We're going to be reactive rather

than proactive because the situation

522

:

and the context demands it.

523

:

Pam: Yeah, exactly.

524

:

And I think at this stage as well, if

you are looking for additional support,

525

:

it's definitely worth considering working

with a coach or a mentor to support your

526

:

thinking and your decision making as you

work through the ambiguity and Jacqui's

527

:

practical leadership power hour session

is probably perfect for this situation

528

:

because you can thrash it out and come

up with a plan within that power hour.

529

:

And you can then go away with

real clarity and you can then take

530

:

that forward to your managers,

to your peers, to, to your teams.

531

:

And I think that the key with clarity

is that some is better than none.

532

:

Wouldn't you say?

533

:

And taking ownership of creating as

much clarity as you can while not

534

:

beating yourself up is definitely

going to be something that will

535

:

help you rather than hold you back.

536

:

So I would definitely advise if you're

feeling like you're stuck in that rut

537

:

of, having no clarity or spinning all

of the plates to book yourself in with

538

:

Jacqui for one of those power hours

and just, get yourself on that first

539

:

step of the ladder to find and the

clarity that you need because it will

540

:

absolutely help with the rest of your

career, and it will definitely improve

541

:

your ability as a leader as well.

542

:

And don't forget if you're looking for

team development support for your teams.

543

:

We also do offer that under

our Catalyst Careers brand.

544

:

We'll put all of the links below if you

are looking for the support so that you

545

:

can see what you need and get in touch

with us and don't forget to share this

546

:

episode with anybody that you think

might find it useful and also rate

547

:

and review us on your favorite podcast

platforms because the more you do that,

548

:

the more people will get to see us and

be able to also enjoy the conversations

549

:

and all of the advice as well.

550

:

So we'll be back next

week with another episode.

551

:

We'll see you soon.

Ep 73 – How to Lead When Clarity is Lacking

A lack of clarity can be hard work. You want to lead well, you want to give clear vision and direction to your team. But what if you don't have that for yourself? How can you handle ambiguity and still be the leader you want to be?

This week we're exploring why clarity is so important and how to create it when you and your team need it

Key points from this episode

  • The importance of clarity in leadership
  • Spotting the signs that mean creating clarity might need to be a priority
  • Temporary vs ongoing ambiguity - anticipating when clarity will naturally be more of a challenge
  • Questions to ask of others to help create clarity
  • Proposing your priorities and getting the buy in you need
  • The value of external support

Useful Links

Connect with Pam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pamelalangancoaching/

Connect with Jacqui on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacqui-jagger/

Follow the Catalyst Careers LinkedIn page for career tips and advice

Interested in working with us?

Get in touch about career or leadership development, outplacement workshops or recruitment support via the Catalyst Careers website

Book a Practical Leadership Power Hour

Enjoyed this Episode?

If you enjoyed this episode, please take the time to rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

Make sure you're first to hear about new episodes, along with bonus content and free career and leadership tips by signing up on the Career & Leadership Real Talk website

Transcript
Pam:

Hello and welcome to this week's episode.

2

:

We are talking today about how you

can lead when you're lacking clarity.

3

:

We're going to talk about when you're

not getting it from your senior

4

:

leaders and you're wondering, how

do I find this clarity and how can

5

:

I get myself into a position where

I can provide clarity for my teams?

6

:

This is something that Jacqui

covers a lot with her clients.

7

:

And this is something that we cover also

in the workshops that we do throughout

8

:

with the company Catalyst Careers.

9

:

So Jackie, you can kick us off and

talk to us about the importance

10

:

of clarity in leadership.

11

:

Jacqui: So there are a number of

ways that clarity has an impact.

12

:

And the biggest of those probably

is the ability to have focus.

13

:

So a mentor of mine there's a brilliant

phrase that he used that I love,

14

:

and that is clarity is knowing what

you need to do, focus is getting it

15

:

done and clarity has to come first.

16

:

And there are so many

organizations at the moment.

17

:

It feels like a proper epidemic

where people are working their

18

:

asses off, working really

hard and trying to be focused.

19

:

But the piece that's

missing is the clarity.

20

:

If you can have direction and

focus, then you're moving towards

21

:

something rather than trying to

keep absolutely everything spinning.

22

:

And I think that in itself then

has other knock on effects.

23

:

So it has effects on morale and

engagement, because if you can achieve

24

:

the same with less effort, if you

can achieve the outcome that's needed

25

:

rather than have wasted effort,

then that has an impact on morale.

26

:

It has an impact on the level of

stress that people are exposed to.

27

:

It also helps in a lot of other ways.

28

:

So it helps as a leader with things

like accountability and being

29

:

able to delegate effectively.

30

:

If there's clarity on who is making

the decisions, what the priorities are,

31

:

then there is an ability that you have

as a leader to be able to delegate and

32

:

equally for yourself, if you are clear

on how you should be prioritizing.

33

:

Then things can be delegated to you.

34

:

So things can sit at the right level

within the business and the right people

35

:

can be accountable for those things.

36

:

And then it also, as a consequence of

that allows for better decision making

37

:

because there's that understanding

of what are the different factors

38

:

that need to be taken into account

in order to make good decisions.

39

:

So without clarity, all of those

things start to get chipped

40

:

away and start to get crumbled.

41

:

Yeah.

42

:

But I think for me really that the

overarching one, the one that I'm seeing

43

:

the most with my own clients is that

aspect of the level of performance and

44

:

that's then dependent upon being able to

actually be focused and be productive and

45

:

not be constantly stressed and anxious by

trying to do a million and one things when

46

:

in reality the priorities could be clear.

47

:

Pam: And I absolutely

agree with all of that.

48

:

And I was just thinking as you were

talking through that about one of my

49

:

clients recently who came to me because

he was thinking that there's nothing

50

:

else he can learn from his manager.

51

:

There's no clarity.

52

:

It's quite chaotic.

53

:

And he came to me and said, I

just need to get out of there.

54

:

So rather than looking at ways to

gain clarity, rather than having

55

:

those conversations with his manager,

he was just looking to jump ship.

56

:

And I feel like that happens quite

a lot for some of my job search

57

:

clients, because when there isn't that

sense of clarity, when you feel like

58

:

you just you're going in every day.

59

:

And sometimes it can feel

like trudging through the mud.

60

:

Sometimes you just feel like

you're all over the place.

61

:

And.

62

:

Like you were saying, they're

like spinning lots of plates.

63

:

It's really hard, isn't it?

64

:

And I feel like when people get to

a certain point in that situation,

65

:

there's no going back for them.

66

:

They just feel like they just

need to get out of there.

67

:

Jacqui: I love what you said that

the absence of clarity is chaos.

68

:

That in a nutshell is my very

descriptive answer of all the

69

:

reasons why clarity is important and

the big reason is to avoid chaos.

70

:

So yeah, if people are in a chaotic

situation that is stressful,

71

:

it's not easy to deliver and

people want to do a good job.

72

:

So it does not surprise me that

a big driver for people coming to

73

:

you for that job search coaching is

because they need to get away from.

74

:

The chaos.

75

:

And in reality, if you build the skills

of starting to create clarity for yourself

76

:

and for your team from chaos, then

sometimes that is avoidable, but it's

77

:

completely understandable that people

maybe don't have that awareness or that

78

:

understanding of quite how to go about it.

79

:

And the net result of that is

talent gets lost from businesses.

80

:

People move on in search of somewhere

that they can have a bit more of that

81

:

calm ability to focus and more reasonable

workloads that comes with clear

82

:

direction and clear vision being set.

83

:

Pam: Yeah, absolutely.

84

:

So I think probably the next thing

for us to focus on here is really how

85

:

to spot when that clarity is lacking,

because I do feel like sometimes you

86

:

can just feel like you're caught up

in the chaos and you don't really

87

:

know why or what to do about it.

88

:

Whereas, this is a good time to think,

is my work life quite chaotic right now.

89

:

Could it be that we're just

lacking the clarity and the focus?

90

:

So how do you spot when

the clarity is lacking?

91

:

Jacqui: So what we're talking

about here, I think are some of

92

:

the more subtle signs that if left

unchecked, then become that chaos.

93

:

So if you've got chaos, you've probably

got all of these signs, but you could

94

:

equally be on the road towards it.

95

:

So I think in quite quick succession,

we can run through these because

96

:

people will recognize them.

97

:

But if you haven't got the level of clear

direction for yourself and your team, then

98

:

some of the likely signs would include

things like people know what they need

99

:

to deliver, but they don't know why.

100

:

So if you've got people that

seem to be questioning you

101

:

about why do I need to do that?

102

:

Then that can be that there isn't the

understanding of what's behind it.

103

:

So they might have an objective

or they might have a task or a

104

:

project that they're delivering.

105

:

But if they don't have the context of why,

then what that can do is impact some of

106

:

those things we were talking about before.

107

:

So it can mean that they perhaps

aren't in the best place to make the

108

:

decision you would make in that context.

109

:

They perhaps don't have the

understanding of how does that fit in.

110

:

You'll also see that decisions

get deferred upwards.

111

:

So if you are that person

where you're like, why will

112

:

they not just get on with it?

113

:

Why are they not just going and doing it?

114

:

Often that is because people don't

have the confidence that they

115

:

are able to make those decisions.

116

:

And that can be because they don't

know the context in which to make

117

:

the decisions or because they don't

feel confident that they would make

118

:

the same decision you would make.

119

:

And they don't want to

take the flack after it.

120

:

If they make what you consider

to be the wrong decision.

121

:

So decisions deferring upwards is a sign.

122

:

Also people kind of coasting.

123

:

So that lack of engagement piece, it

can be that where people previously

124

:

have been quite engaged, but then

they may be seen as if they're not.

125

:

Posting or drifting or where perhaps

kind of politics or jostling for position

126

:

or bickering is coming into play.

127

:

So those kinds of things can also be

signs that people don't have that kind of

128

:

laser focus and approach to their work.

129

:

You'll also start to see things

like deadlines being missed.

130

:

So you might have, 27 things.

131

:

And in your head, if something if a ball's

got to be dropped, it should be this one.

132

:

But if that's not a shared

understanding and other people don't

133

:

have the same understanding as you,

then deadlines can be dropped on

134

:

things that you feel are important.

135

:

Projects can be really hard to get off

the ground and really hard to keep moving.

136

:

And one of the reasons for that is

that you'll have this situation, and

137

:

again, taking me back to my corporate

days, rehashing the same conversation

138

:

time and time again, in different

meetings with different groups of

139

:

people, different levels, and almost

coming back to the same discussion.

140

:

Even though it's hang on, didn't

we talk about that last week and

141

:

the week before and two months ago?

142

:

And yet it's still a

topic of conversation.

143

:

So all of those things can be signs

that you're needing more clarity.

144

:

For yourself, for your team,

for the organization as a whole.

145

:

Pam: Yeah.

146

:

And it's clear to see when you read

out like that list of things, so

147

:

you talk through that list of things

that it's so easy for people to get

148

:

frustrated in that situation, isn't it?

149

:

Because you in it every day.

150

:

And if those things are happening

consistently, you do just start

151

:

to think, what am I doing?

152

:

I haven't got the energy for this anymore.

153

:

So it's very.

154

:

clear to see why people do start looking

for new roles rather than trying to

155

:

find the clarity in their current role.

156

:

With clarity and trying to find

clarity, sometimes that in itself

157

:

is going to be a challenge.

158

:

So you can spot that it's happening.

159

:

And, when you talk through, All of

those different things that it's you

160

:

can almost imagine those situations.

161

:

Can't you?

162

:

As you were talking to then I was

like thinking, yeah, I remember that

163

:

when I was back in the corporate world

and at the time you don't think that

164

:

it's anything to do with clarity.

165

:

You just, you're just stuck

in that cycle, aren't you?

166

:

So I suppose.

167

:

At the same time, you have got

that level of challenge that you're

168

:

facing as well, along with this.

169

:

In terms of when, when you're feeling,

or if you're listening and you're

170

:

thinking, wow, it's clarity that

I was looking for all of the time.

171

:

It was clarity.

172

:

If you find yourself in this situation

where you are thinking now that we've

173

:

unpacked that a little bit, it is actually

clarity that I need to find for me before

174

:

I can start creating clarity for others.

175

:

What times would you also say that finding

clarity will be a challenge as well?

176

:

Jacqui: So I think there are a number of

situations where it is very normal for

177

:

there to be A temporary lack of clarity.

178

:

And I think it's important that people

don't think that any absence of clarity

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:

is a terrible thing and a reason to start

looking for another job or moving on.

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So you'll have situations, for example,

where there's organizational change, It

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could be a restructure or redundancy.

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And with that comes changes of roles

and responsibilities, comes changes of

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focus for the organization as a whole.

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And so it's natural that it will take time

for those things to settle and for those

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things to be communicated and cascaded.

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You'll also find it a challenge if

there is kind of some fundamental

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:

issues with the organization.

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And I think these are the more

challenging types of scenarios.

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So if there's politics at the top level

and there's mixed messaging and there's

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, silos developing where one director

wants one thing and one director wants

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something else and you're caught in the

crossfire, that can be a real challenge.

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It can be that there is a lack of

strategy for the business that the

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people at the top are Either in the

process of developing a strategy.

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And so again, that can be more temporary

or that they've got a strategy that

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:

is massively failing and they're

not revisiting and recommunicating.

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What do we need to do or change?

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It can also just be.

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pace of change.

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Fast growing and scaling businesses often

operate with an awful lot of ambiguity.

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And because I work a lot with mid

size businesses, I see this where

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leaders have got their first kind

of head of or director role and

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they've, shifted from a bigger

corporate into a smaller organization

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was literally having a conversation

yesterday of people can look around

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and go, okay is this how it is here?

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Is this normal?

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Because there aren't all the same

kind of structures and organization.

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In scaling businesses, that pace of

change, it can be a lot, but also in

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midsize and smaller businesses, the

lack of structure can just be the norm.

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And if you've been used to more clarity

and you come to a situation where

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there's less, that can be tricky.

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:

Also, If you've got a lot of complexity

within an organization, within a context

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that you're working within, so that can

be related to industry, highly regulated

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:

industries will have an awful lot of

complexity and an awful lot of things that

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:

might change outside of the organization

that then have an impact coming back in.

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:

It can be when you're new to a role.

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:

And you haven't done all of that learning

piece yet and you need to figure it out.

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:

And let's be honest.

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It can also be when your boss really

isn't up to it and your boss is quite

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:

chaotic and they're comfortable with

chaos and they don't see the reason

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or the importance for creating that

clarity for you, or they don't have

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:

that skill to be able to do it for

themselves so they can do it for you.

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So there's lots of different scenarios

where it can become a challenge.

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And I think the secret to it is

understanding, is this a temporary thing?

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Is it something that I

can live with for a bit?

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Is it something that I

can do something about?

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And if so, what strategies can I pick?

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How can I go about getting the

answers that I need so that I can,

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Be the leader that I want to be.

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:

So something that I've used

years and leadership development

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workshops is you don't have to be

well led in order to lead well.

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And I think this is the prime example

where don't necessarily always need

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all the clarity that you'd ideally

like in order to still be able to

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create more for yourself and your team.

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Pam: Yeah, I absolutely love that.

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That little quote as well.

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That you don't have to be well

led to, to lead well, because

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you just see it so often.

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The amount of people that we speak

to every single year and it's

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always the same stuff, isn't it?

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:

That comes up over and over again,

and we know that the companies don't

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always provide the best leadership

training and people get different

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levels of leadership training.

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:

Some people get thrown in at the deep

end, like there's so many things that

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play in to becoming a great leader.

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:

And I think, obviously the people

that listen to the podcast, you're

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:

actively looking to develop your

skills and move forward as a leader.

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:

And that's great.

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:

And I suppose one of the key things

with that is It is around, that

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real kind of thought of creating

that clarity for yourself and your

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team and where you start with that.

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:

And I know you've got some really

good questions that you use to,

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:

to help people find that clarity.

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So what would you say would be your top

four or five questions that you would ask

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:

any leader to ask themselves to find that

clarity for themselves and their teams?

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Jacqui: So when people are seeking

clarity, the natural thing, and probably

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what I used to ask when I was employed was

things like, what are your expectations?

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What are my objectives?

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Those kinds of questions where you're

seeking to get that understanding.

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The problem with asking those questions,

particularly if you think about some

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of the scenarios that we've just said

can make it more challenging, if you've

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got a restructure, if you've got a pace

of change, if you've got lots going

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:

on, if you've got a boss, who isn't

that brilliant at creating clarity.

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:

Those questions take quite a lot

of time and thought for people

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:

to give a meaningful answer.

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:

And so what I really advocate for

people as you, particularly as you

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:

become more senior, and as you step up

where the expectations of you are less

267

:

clear, is to use different questions.

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So instead, ask things like,

What are your priorities?

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What are the things that you are

finding a challenge at the moment?

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The things I'm seeing are X, Y, and Z.

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Would you say those are the biggest

challenges for us as a business?

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:

Or would you say these are the biggest

challenges for us as a function?

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:

And you'll get then, questions

that are easier for somebody

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to answer off the cuff.

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:

And you'll get that clarity without

them feeling like you're asking a big

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job of them because they don't have to

do all the thought process to draw a

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:

conclusion, they can either say yes or no.

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If you're saying, is it this,

but also if you're saying, okay,

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what are your biggest challenges?

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:

What are your biggest priorities?

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What are the things?

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Another one that I think is really

helpful to ask is what are the sort

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:

of decisions that are in progress at

a senior level that might affect me?

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I don't need to know the discussion,

that might be confidential, but

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what are the things that I need

to have on my radar that might be

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:

coming down the line towards me?

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:

And when you ask those kinds of questions,

You almost get the insight and get

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:

them to start creating clarity without

making it a big job for them to do that.

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:

And that's why those questions can be so

effective because they don't feel like a

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:

big job for the person you're asking them

off, but they give you really helpful

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:

insights to help you build that kind of

context and picture that is maybe lacking.

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Pam: Yeah.

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:

And I think sometimes as well with

those more common ones, like around

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the objectives and things like that.

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If your manager is somebody that

hasn't got that level of clarity, then

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:

those questions are probably going to

be a nightmare to them, aren't they?

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:

Whereas the ones that you've just

described there, they're really

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:

focused, but a lot softer and

easier to answer, aren't they?

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:

Because it's more about leaning

into what are the priorities?

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What are the challenges?

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:

Rather than, what should

our objectives be?

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:

Because a lot of the time, That isn't

clear, but once you understand what the

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:

priorities are, and ultimately what you

need to be working towards, then you can

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:

then create the objectives and things like

that off the back of those conversations.

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:

What you're effectively doing

there is managing up aren't you?

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:

Using your influence as a leader

to, to extract that information that

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you need, that's going to help you

gain the clarity and also help you

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:

provide that clarity for your team

and make your team more effective.

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:

Jacqui: There's managing up.

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:

And the other way to use it is to use

some of those types of questions with

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peers and colleagues, because people

often over emphasize the relationship

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:

with their boss and their team,

so the up and down relationships.

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And don't do enough on that collaborative

relationship with peers at the same level.

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:

If you ask those types of questions of

some of your colleagues, what you'll

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:

start to find is that things that maybe

your boss didn't think to tell you

316

:

that you might need to be involved in.

317

:

There may be projects or things that

colleagues are going to need from you.

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:

So particularly if you're maybe in

more of those kind of head office type

319

:

functions, say you're a marketer or

you're in HR and other people have

320

:

got projects that they do know that

they're going to have to work on.

321

:

There may be things where it's important

for you to have input or where you

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:

could really add value or contribute.

323

:

If you ask those types of questions

of what are your priorities, what

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:

are the things that you as a function

are going to be working on, then

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:

what you can do is with those peer

relationships, you can create the

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:

opportunity for kind of input or

influence earlier on, as opposed to later.

327

:

An example of this was I remember

working in operations and somebody

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:

coming in from L& D and they have this

kind of whole project plan for how

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:

we're going to roll this thing out.

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:

And then we were sitting

there going, okay, but we've

331

:

also got an IT system change.

332

:

So IT have all got a whole

project plan for how that system

333

:

is going to be rolled out.

334

:

And actually we need to, from

an operations perspective,

335

:

be aware of both of these.

336

:

And we need to think about how do we

deliver our contribution to both projects.

337

:

So even though the projects might be

owned by the function, there will be

338

:

other stakeholders and not necessarily

that you will get to hear about them.

339

:

But if you start to use some of those

questions, you can get a bit more

340

:

foresight and understand what's going on.

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:

What might be coming down the

line towards you, what might you

342

:

need to plan and prepare for?

343

:

And then again, when you're building your

objectives and when you're building your

344

:

kind of own planning for yourself and

your team, you can have that oversight

345

:

of those types of things as well.

346

:

Pam: Sometimes when you've not got that

clarity, it can be really tempting to

347

:

wait until you've got the clarity before

you start communicating with your team.

348

:

Because I suppose with that, you

probably feel if I just go straight

349

:

into this and, start talking about,

how we find the clarity, or maybe

350

:

you don't want to share that you've

not got the clarity at that point.

351

:

So you stop yourself from sharing

with the team and communicating

352

:

with the team, but that isn't always

the best way to play it, is it?

353

:

Jacqui: No, definitely not.

354

:

I think it's tempting for two reasons.

355

:

One is you feel like

Okay, I'm nearly there.

356

:

It's better to do it once and do it well.

357

:

So I'm better to go and gather

all this information and

358

:

communicate when I've got it.

359

:

But that can underestimate

the impact for other people of

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:

operating with that ambiguity

for that extended period of time.

361

:

And the other, I think, is feeling

that you should know, and you should

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:

have clarity and you should have

the answers and be able to present

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:

the whole thing as a full picture.

364

:

And in reality, as a leader,

that's not always the case.

365

:

There will be times where it's

unavoidable that you'll be operating

366

:

under, ambiguity for a period of time.

367

:

So I would completely agree that

often communicating what you do

368

:

know, you can also at the same time

communicate what you don't know and

369

:

what you're working on finding out.

370

:

You can also then get input from your

team, you can find out what questions do

371

:

they have, what is it that comes up for

them when they're hearing about, these

372

:

are the things that I'm not yet sure of.

373

:

So they can then have their questions

answered when you're going and seeking

374

:

it, as opposed to you trying to go

to that and present the whole thing.

375

:

And then they fire a load of

questions and you still have

376

:

to go off and do a load more.

377

:

So I think when you set ego aside

and you work collaboratively with

378

:

your team, you can be really honest

that I don't have all the answers.

379

:

And this is the things

I do have answers on.

380

:

And these are the things that I don't.

381

:

And what questions have you

and how do we work together?

382

:

With the information that we've got and

what that does as well is it gives a

383

:

bit of that alert to the fact that maybe

things will change and maybe you haven't

384

:

got the full picture as opposed to it

seeming like you're moving the goalposts

385

:

by giving a full answer over here and

then suddenly something changes because

386

:

you didn't have the full picture, and

then you go down a different route.

387

:

So yeah, I think there's a number

of reasons why it's really helpful.

388

:

Pam: Yeah.

389

:

And do you know what, as you were going

through that, you know that my mind

390

:

always goes to interview prep because

all of this stuff, like what you are

391

:

talking through there is essentially

like the working out, isn't it?

392

:

There's some great examples there

that you could think about, how did

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:

you get your team from A to B, from a

clarity perspective, and you, these are

394

:

really good things that you can then

use as evidence in your interviews all

395

:

of this stuff where you've took your

team, from, where there was a real

396

:

lack of clarity and then you take that

interview through those different stages

397

:

where you shared what was going on.

398

:

As a leader, when you're thinking about

progressing your career, these things

399

:

are so important to just even be really

intentional with what you're doing

400

:

and thinking about the processes that

you go through, because when it does

401

:

come to those interviews, to go for

those promotions and things like that.

402

:

These are the things that you're

going to be talking about.

403

:

So if you're thinking about how you

go through these processes and almost

404

:

documenting it as you go, what worked,

what didn't work, how will you improve?

405

:

It all just adds up, doesn't it?

406

:

And helps you move forward.

407

:

Jacqui: Absolutely.

408

:

And it really helps with getting the

team to buy into you with increasing

409

:

engagement within your team.

410

:

So there's so many examples.

411

:

And if you are looking

at promotions internally.

412

:

It really sets you as somebody who

takes the initiative, who works with

413

:

what they can and doesn't complain

about what they don't have, but who

414

:

really takes that initiative and grasps

it and will go and seek what they

415

:

need for themselves and their team,

rather than be passive and wait to

416

:

be given clear direction themselves.

417

:

They will seek to create what

they and their team need.

418

:

Pam: Yeah, exactly.

419

:

And I think when you start thinking

of it from that perspective, when you

420

:

start being really intentional about

it, it actually gives you a lot more

421

:

clarity than you would ever realize.

422

:

I think just being really intentional

and Almost like setting out your

423

:

stall and just thinking, what do

we need to have in this store?

424

:

What answers do we need?

425

:

What do we need to do to be able to set

everything out really well, but being

426

:

able to communicate along the way.

427

:

I think that is really super helpful.

428

:

That advice, regardless of the level of

leader that you are currently, like that

429

:

advice is going to help you throughout

every stage of your career, even if

430

:

you're not at leadership level just

yet, or even if you're fairly senior,

431

:

where you are now this is relevant

isn't it for every level of leadership.

432

:

So I suppose the next stage

for this is to propose and get

433

:

buy in for your priorities.

434

:

So what is the best way to go about that?

435

:

Jacqui: So once you feel that you have

more clarity from the questions that

436

:

you've asked from the discussions that

you might have had and from reflecting

437

:

on what are the business priorities?

438

:

What do I know?

439

:

What can I see that means it's

going to shape my priorities

440

:

and my team's priorities?

441

:

You then create, if you

like, your proposal.

442

:

Okay.

443

:

This is my role and this is how I

feel that things need to be done.

444

:

And for me, I remember doing

this years ago where I was asked

445

:

to write my own objectives.

446

:

It was the first time I've

been asked to do that.

447

:

I was at a senior leadership level and it

felt a bit weird because I've been used

448

:

to being given objectives from my bosses.

449

:

And the way that I approached

it was to think okay.

450

:

I know that the business priority,

this was way back in the noughties.

451

:

It was during the credit crunch.

452

:

We really needed to protect our profit

margins, and we knew that growing

453

:

revenue during the economic situation

that we were in was going to be more

454

:

of a challenge than it had previously.

455

:

The priority then for me from

an operations perspective

456

:

is on reducing cost.

457

:

Where are my biggest cost bases?

458

:

Where are my responsibilities that

hold a higher proportion of cost?

459

:

And where can I seek to deliver

that back and that was how

460

:

I came to that conclusion.

461

:

So I then proposed an objective

of saving a percentage of the

462

:

warehousing staffing fees.

463

:

So we could be more

productive in the warehouse.

464

:

We could change some of the

ways that we were operating.

465

:

We could seek to create a cost saving

by doing things more efficiently.

466

:

And that was the kind of thought

process that I went through.

467

:

And that was me just taking, I

know that cost saving is a big

468

:

priority as within operations.

469

:

I've got a number of different cost

spaces that I'm responsible for.

470

:

Where do, where have we not

looked at before for saving costs?

471

:

Where can we create that?

472

:

Okay.

473

:

So I'm going to propose that this is.

474

:

One of my strategic

objectives for this year.

475

:

And I think it's that thought

process and then saying, okay,

476

:

so here's a starter for 10.

477

:

Here are some things that I've

created that I feel are going to be

478

:

the relevant things for me and my

team to deliver if we deliver this.

479

:

Is that what is going to tick your boxes?

480

:

Is that what's going to, so going

way back to what we said about

481

:

asking questions, instead of saying,

what are you expecting from me?

482

:

What are the measures of success?

483

:

What you're saying is I believe what you

need from me is, and the way I'm proposing

484

:

to deliver that is, and you share that.

485

:

And then people can either go yes or

no, they're not always going to say yes.

486

:

They're not always going to agree.

487

:

But just in doing that, you create the

conversation and the opportunity then

488

:

for them to go, Oh, that's not right.

489

:

Okay.

490

:

Why is that not right?

491

:

What have I missed?

492

:

What do I not understand?

493

:

And then you refine and you can go again.

494

:

But what that does is positions you

again, as somebody that takes that

495

:

initiative that steps it up and he's

coming forward and saying, This is how

496

:

I believe I'm making a contribution.

497

:

Is that what you're wanting

and expecting from me?

498

:

Good away I go.

499

:

And I'll make a plan and deliver it.

500

:

Or no, okay, what do you want instead?

501

:

Pam: Yeah, I totally agree with that.

502

:

And I think sometimes as well, it is

about embracing the uncertainty, isn't it?

503

:

And almost using all of these

experiences as a form of training,

504

:

everybody is working towards something,

everybody needs to practice and

505

:

test these different things out.

506

:

And I think by doing that as well, it

will definitely, Increase your tolerance

507

:

for ambiguity and make you feel more

comfortable working in that space.

508

:

And especially if you're in a

position where your boss just lacks

509

:

the capacity or the competence

to provide that clear direction.

510

:

So you might need to stick to some

short term priorities and reassess those

511

:

like fairly often, would you say that

is probably the best way to play it?

512

:

Jacqui: Yeah, if you're finding that

you've done all of those other things and

513

:

there just is no more clarity forthcoming,

then yeah, it's understand that the times

514

:

where you do have to operate there and.

515

:

It is absolutely increasing your skill

set if you're able to do some of that

516

:

thinking, conclude that actually I

can't create longer range clarity, so

517

:

I'm going to focus on the shorter term.

518

:

That's still creating clarity

because it's still saying This is

519

:

what's important for right now.

520

:

These are what the priorities are.

521

:

We're going to be reactive rather

than proactive because the situation

522

:

and the context demands it.

523

:

Pam: Yeah, exactly.

524

:

And I think at this stage as well, if

you are looking for additional support,

525

:

it's definitely worth considering working

with a coach or a mentor to support your

526

:

thinking and your decision making as you

work through the ambiguity and Jacqui's

527

:

practical leadership power hour session

is probably perfect for this situation

528

:

because you can thrash it out and come

up with a plan within that power hour.

529

:

And you can then go away with

real clarity and you can then take

530

:

that forward to your managers,

to your peers, to, to your teams.

531

:

And I think that the key with clarity

is that some is better than none.

532

:

Wouldn't you say?

533

:

And taking ownership of creating as

much clarity as you can while not

534

:

beating yourself up is definitely

going to be something that will

535

:

help you rather than hold you back.

536

:

So I would definitely advise if you're

feeling like you're stuck in that rut

537

:

of, having no clarity or spinning all

of the plates to book yourself in with

538

:

Jacqui for one of those power hours

and just, get yourself on that first

539

:

step of the ladder to find and the

clarity that you need because it will

540

:

absolutely help with the rest of your

career, and it will definitely improve

541

:

your ability as a leader as well.

542

:

And don't forget if you're looking for

team development support for your teams.

543

:

We also do offer that under

our Catalyst Careers brand.

544

:

We'll put all of the links below if you

are looking for the support so that you

545

:

can see what you need and get in touch

with us and don't forget to share this

546

:

episode with anybody that you think

might find it useful and also rate

547

:

and review us on your favorite podcast

platforms because the more you do that,

548

:

the more people will get to see us and

be able to also enjoy the conversations

549

:

and all of the advice as well.

550

:

So we'll be back next

week with another episode.

551

:

We'll see you soon.

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