Ep 63 – Career Planning Part 2 – Looking Forward

Hello and welcome to this week's episode.

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This is the second of our episodes on

career planning and if you're listening

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as it's released then it's early in the

new year, so it's a natural time for

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people to be reflecting on their career

and thinking about what they want.

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We've already both heard stories

about people handing in their

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resignations early in the new but they

don't have to be new year episodes

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so at any point that you listen.

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We've designed them as two episodes

that work together in tandem to help you

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hopefully create some clarity on where

your career is currently at and what you

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might want to do in terms of next steps.

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We would definitely recommend going

and listening to the previous episode.

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In it, we shared six of our

favorite reflection questions

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that we use when we're working

with career coaching clients.

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And that is.

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a well worthwhile exercise to do before

you move on to the episode and what

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we're going to share with you today.

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So Pam, once somebody has done that

reflection piece then, and they've some

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of their clarity about what some of

their strengths are, what they're proud

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of, what maybe hasn't gone so well.

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What do you do next in terms of

getting people thinking about what

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their future career might look like?

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What's the first step on that side of it?

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Pam: So the first step for me, and this

is part of the reverse engineer your

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career strategy is to look at How many

years you've got left in your career

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before you retire, and it's a really

cool calculation and it's always a real

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eye opener for people as well because

sometimes they might not realize how

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much or how little time they've got

left to make an impact in their career.

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So it's the first thing that we do

once you've done that reflection

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and you've gone through all of the

good stuff and the uncomfortable

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stuff and all of that great stuff.

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It's looking at, okay how do we

move forward and how long have we

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got left to make that real impact?

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So if you're 40 now, for example,

and you're thinking of retiring

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at 65, then you've got 25 years

to make an impact in your career.

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Okay.

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So 25 years for some people might

seem like a really long time and for

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others, I can tell by your face that

you're just thinking what 25 years.

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Jacqui: It just feels, I think it's

interesting probably for listeners

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to do that calculation mentally.

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I'm just imagining people listening to

this in the car and having the response

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that I have of Oh, I've got quite a long

time left and it, I'm often somebody

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that will go on to the next thing and

then the next thing operate at pace.

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And so I think when I think about the

length of time that I have got left,

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it feels longer than I expected it to.

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I was like, Oh, quite a long time.

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Pam: It's good though, isn't it?

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Because it really puts it into

perspective because we're constantly like.

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Go on to the next thing,

what do we need to do next?

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Where do we need to move?

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And sometimes actually what we need

to do is just stand still and think

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about what is the best way to go?

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What is the best way to, to gain

the experience and the exposure

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that we need in order to achieve

our ultimate career goal.

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And sometimes we don't always know

what that ultimate career goal is.

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But nine times out of 10, we'll have

a pretty good idea of what salary

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we want to be earning, the type

of lifestyle we want to be living

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and all of that kind of stuff.

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So as part of reverse engineering your

career, that's where we start looking

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at, okay what's the bigger picture?

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What are you working towards?

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And then thinking about your ultimate

career goal and achieving that.

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I usually like to see people achieve

that ultimate goal with five to

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seven years of their career left.

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Because that gives them enough time to

make a real impact to really lay the

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foundations that you know for the next

person and to leave that career feeling

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successful that they've achieved what they

wanted to achieve and also being able to

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make a real impact during that as well.

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So I think when you're thinking about.

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Looking forward it's almost going, okay,

let's look at the bigger picture, not just

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the next role, or, looking for it's always

the next role, the next opportunity,

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the next course that, it's, there's

always something that's coming next.

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A lot of that stuff isn't necessary to get

to that ultimate career goal, but because

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we're constantly in go mode and trying

to get through everything as fast as we

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can, we don't realize how much time we've

got to actually make those considered

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choices and make more of an impact.

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Jacqui: And that is interesting as I

hear that thinking backwards that kind

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of five to seven years, because I think

for me, the natural assumption without

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hearing that would be you almost aim

to get to your ultimate career goal

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just before the end of your career.

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So where before I was saying

it felt like a long time.

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All of a sudden, if you take seven

years off, then that might feel like,

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ah, now there's actually not as much

time as I expected left to get to

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that ultimate career point, because

that does make quite a big difference

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if you've got say 20, 25 years left,

then taking seven years off it.

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That becomes a big chunk of that time.

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Pam: Yeah, it does, but what I find

really interesting about that is that

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when you know how long you've got,

you can then work out okay, these are

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the things I need to get exposure to.

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These are the experiences that I need

to have in order to achieve that goal.

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So what does that look like from

a bigger picture point of view?

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Does that look like a variety

of different job titles?

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Does that look like

some different courses?

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Does that look like just some real

kinds of, hands on experience?

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What does it look like?

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What do you need to do

in order to get there?

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And also looking at the gaps from where

you are now, to where you'd like to be.

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A lot of the time, because we're

so focused on moving forward, we

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completely overlook the fact that

we've got a lot of the experience

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that we need to take that next step.

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And one of the mistakes I see people

making is making lots of sideways

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moves because they feel they need more

experience or they need more of something.

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So they keep going sideways rather than

taking that step up because they never

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really look into what are the gaps?

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How far away am I?

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Is it possible to take that

next step or do I just need

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to keep gathering experiences?

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And this is where CVs can then

become flooded with lots of different

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jobs and it can make it then quite

difficult to go, overall, I've got

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this experience to take the step up.

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People find it really

hard to articulate that.

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Whereas looking at it from this point

of view and thinking about it from the

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reverse engineer, your career perspective,

you can work backwards and then you

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can go, okay this is where I am now.

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Actually, I'm only two or three jobs

away from that ultimate career goal.

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It might even be less depending

on where you are in your career.

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And then you can go right.

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Okay.

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So if it's two or three more jobs

and I've got say 18 years, what

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does that look like in reality?

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And what do I actually want

to do during that time?

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And that's where you can start

making those really considered

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choices and start exploring what

does the next step look like?

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And it could be that actually, as

part of making that move, you need to

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create a network or a stronger network.

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People only network when

they're looking to move jobs.

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They don't tend to build the network.

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And we've talked about this before on,

on the podcast, but when you see how

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many years you've got in front of you, to

make those career moves and to make those

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choices, then you can start taking more

considered action towards building that

130

network and building relationships of

people without having to do it in a rush.

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Because now's the time to move and

you're constantly moving at pace, but

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you don't really know where you're moving

to and how each role benefits the next.

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Jacqui: Such good points.

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And as you were talking, there were

two different clients that I've

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worked with recently that came to mind

that really illustrate those points.

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So one was a senior client

already in a leadership role, knew

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that her ultimate career goal.

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Not that was my terminology in the

conversation, but recognized that

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her ultimate career goal was a CEO.

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And what happened was as we explored,

what are some of the things that you

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need to gain exposure to, or what

might you need in order to be at that?

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There was really only one element

that was significant that she needed

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to gain experience of or exposure to.

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Her leadership experience was great her

experience in terms of commercials and

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operations was really strong already.

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Actually, it was the detail of some

of the financials and that side of

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it that was really important for

her to be in a position to gain

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that opportunity in the future.

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So that really helped to shape what

might her development look like, and that

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didn't necessarily involve moving roles,

there was potential for her to gain that.

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For a different client, the networking

piece came in very much to the fore, for

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exactly that reason, that she recognized

that If I want to get the opportunities,

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and I find this with clients quite

often, people will be frustrated that

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other people are getting opportunities.

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And when you look at why they're getting

those opportunities, that's what they've

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been doing that I haven't been doing,

is they've been doing that networking.

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They've been putting themselves at the

forefront, making themselves memorable,

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having conversations with the right people

over a consistent period, as opposed to,

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I'm now in the early stages because I've

been putting my head down and doing a good

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job and waiting to be recognized for it.

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And that's often beneficial

for opportunities within

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the same organization.

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But if you want a broader range of

opportunities, or if you're in a

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bigger organization, that networking

piece and that strategic building

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of relationships is a crucial part

of your career strategy, isn't it?

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Pam: You're absolutely right.

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And those experiences that

your clients have had show that

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sometimes we can massively overlook

the things that we need to do.

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It can be so much simpler to make

those career moves than we think.

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And for the majority of senior leaders,

they will find any way that things like

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networking will secure them a role much

faster than job boards and, all of the

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good stuff that we do to job search.

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So just taking the time to think, how

long have I got left in my working career?

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What do I think my

ultimate career goal is?

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You don't have to know exactly.

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All of this stuff that we're talking

about, you don't have to exactly know

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what you want to do, but it's just

about moving in the right direction.

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It's about not wasting any time, making

sideways moves for the sake of it.

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Every single move that you make from

this point onwards, after listening

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to this podcast episode should be

a considered move and should be

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adding something to your career.

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Should be adding something to your CV

and should be adding something to your

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CV and should be adding something to

your CV and should be For you from a

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personal development point as well,

because if every move that you make is

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adding value to your career, and that

will really help you stay on track and

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move towards that ultimate career goal.

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And help you if you don't

already know what that looks

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like to really work it out.

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So it's a real change of mindset

and perspective . It's about

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putting you and your career first

and making those considered.

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Moves and taking those chances and moving

forward in your career in a way that

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benefits you and obviously all of the

companies that you work for, they're

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going to benefit from your focus from the

impact that you make, because you will

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be making a lot more impact when you're

taking or making those considered moves.

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It's, it's a really good thing to start

thinking about now, and even if you don't

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know all the answers, the reflection,

the journaling, the constantly bringing

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it to the front of your mind, and even

just questioning yourself on what's next.

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And, what you actually want to do

moving forward will really help

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you to find the right direction.

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And, if you're thinking, I'm really

stuck, I've done the reflection questions,

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I've tried to think about the ultimate

career goal, then, there's a way you

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can always do a power hour with us.

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Jeff, he does a great one

on fines and clarity and, we

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can support you in fines and.

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The answer, or at least helping

you work out what direction is

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going to be the best one for you.

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Jacqui: Do you find when you're

working with clients on this stuff

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that the ultimate career goal is

easier or harder than the next steps?

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So if people have been normally

thinking what's the next step and

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maybe finding that a struggle, do

they find it easier or harder to

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envisage their ultimate career goal?

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Pam: I think it's always easier to get

the next job than it is to figure out

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what your ultimate career goal is because

it's, it seems depending on what point

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of your career that you're at, it often

seems like really unachievable at the

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point that you start thinking about it.

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And most people find it really hard

to bring it into reality, which is

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why the Reverse Engineer Your Career

Framework works really well in

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helping people to break that down.

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Lots of people come to us, don't they?

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And they're like do I stay in this role?

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Do I move?

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There's loads of things going

on that they're not happy with.

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Maybe they've reached a ceiling point

or, they've become stale in the role.

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There's so many different reasons like why

people start thinking about making a move.

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And it could even just simply be for

promotion because it's time to move.

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But so many people get stuck.

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And it is really a case of.

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Looking at, what am I getting from

this role, like lots of people that we

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work with actually, we start looking

at what is the ultimate career goal

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and start trying to work that out.

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And then what they come to realize is

that a lot of what they need to move

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on to gain clarity is there right in

front of them in that role, but they've

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completely overlooked it because.

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of a number of reasons.

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So sometimes it is like we always

say don't we, you need to stand

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still, you need to take that pause

to, to see, to really see what's

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ahead and what you need to do next.

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Jacqui: I am just thinking of somebody

else that I had a conversation with where

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there was immediately that resistance

when they tried to think about, and

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again, wasn't terminology that we use,

but their ultimate career goal, because

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they were very tied up in, but I've had

in this instance, very broad experience.

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So I've done all of these different things

who would give me an opportunity and.

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I think what's so helpful is if you

do start to have more of that view

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and to take a slightly different

perhaps definition of the ultimate

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career goal than might spring to mind.

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So when you first talked about it,

what struck me was you said you

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might not know exactly the title.

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But you might know the salary level,

the type of lifestyle that you want.

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And often when I'm working with clients,

we also think about elements like what

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type of company do you want to work for?

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Do you want to work for a big company

with quite a lot of structure and

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larger teams, or do you want to work

for a smaller organization that maybe

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has less structure and decisions

might get made quicker, but the.

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Might be some quirks.

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There's often quirks in founder

led businesses, the type that

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I often work with that, that

might feel quite different.

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And when you start to think about some

of those questions, what do you want?

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Do you want a big company or

do you want a smaller company?

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People often find that goes back to our

favorite word of specificity that type of

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specific question can be really helpful.

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So what are some of the other questions?

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That you would use to help

people to get a bit more clarity

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on what that might look like.

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Pam: So in terms of clarity, there's

absolutely tons of questions and

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you're right about the type of

company and all of that kind of stuff.

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And it might even be, the type

of environment, it might be

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the type of leader, it might

just be the company itself.

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For example, one of my clients

recently really unhappy in the

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role, couldn't put the finger on

what it is that they don't like.

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And actually when we looked at their

values, it was a real values mismatch.

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You know what they were selling and the

area that they were operating in really

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didn't sit right with him and he hadn't.

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He just hadn't considered that it

just thought that he was feeling

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unfulfilled in the role that it wasn't

really doing much that he wasn't that

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first on the industry that maybe a

different industry will be better.

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And actually, it was a clear

values mismatch when we

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explored it in more detail.

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So there's so much more than just what

salary or you know what lifestyle like

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there's so much that sits behind that

and like you say the type of company the

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type of leader that you know the type of

environment, the people that you want to

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work with the projects that they run the

products that they sell the services.

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For example you might think I'm done

with sales, but it might just be that

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you're selling the wrong products.

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You might just not believe

in those products or have any

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interest in those products.

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And it's become really boring.

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There's a whole range of different

reasons, but sometimes it is

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about, thinking that a little

bit deeper rather than thinking.

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I hate my job, which is what a

lot of people say to us, isn't it?

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I hate my job.

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Ready to make a move.

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But actually breaking that down,

it's not the job that you hate.

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It's the people, it's the industry, it's

the environment, there's a lot more to it.

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And when you figure that out, it can.

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It can make you a lot happier within

your career and make it so much

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easier to make those moves because

again, you're making considered moves.

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Jacqui: That brought to mind as you

were talking, the idea that ambition is

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always about progression and progression.

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And I think there's that kind of

cultural piece that sometimes people

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feel like they should want to progress.

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And I remember a conversation with a

client clarity hour where we were talking

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about what's important from the next move.

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This was very much around values.

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We had a whole whiteboard chart with

all the things that you want and all the

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things that are going to be red flags.

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So that's another approach that you

can use is to I want this type of

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culture, I want this type of leader,

I want these types of things to be

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in the role, and I don't want these.

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So you can start with what you don't want.

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And often then say, okay if I don't

want that, what do I want instead?

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And that can be a good

way to get more clarity.

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And as we went through this exercise.

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It became effectively a bit of a

wishlist for the longer term without

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it necessarily being an attachment

for it's got to be the next move.

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And what happened was 18 months

or two years later, I got a

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message back from that client

with a picture of the whiteboard.

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Saying, Oh my God, I've just realized

that the job I'm in is this, and by

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going through that process of just

letting yourself think about what

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you want more of and what you know

you don't want longer term, take away

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the pressure of ultimate career goal.

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If that language doesn't speak to you.

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Take away worrying about what

the next move might look like and

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focus on what you want more of

and what you know you don't want.

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And that just makes it so much easier

to create the clarity, doesn't it?

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Pam: Yeah, and that's a really good

point that you made there as well.

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Because one thing that I always say to

people, especially if they're really

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not enjoying their current role, is stop

thinking about it as, this is a role

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that you're stuck in for the foreseeable.

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Start going in every day and

thinking, what can I learn?

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From this situation, what can I

learn from the things that I'm doing?

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Is there anything else that I can learn?

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Is there anything else

I can get exposure to?

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Even things like having difficult

conversations with people and really

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thinking what can I take from this?

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And rather than looking at it like,

oh, and the alarm goes off and you're

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hitting snooze because you don't want to

get out of bed and all of that kind of

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stuff like that, that can really happen.

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And I've seen so many people turn that

around and go rather than focusing

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on all the stuff that I don't like,

I'm going to focus on what I can

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learn, what I can take from every

situation that I find myself in.

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All of this stuff, I always say

back to interview prep, don't I?

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But it's always good interview prep,

it's always good stuff that, anything

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that you do when you start really

focusing in, they're going to be

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all of your interview prep examples.

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They're going to be the stories

that you can talk about.

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And there's nothing better than turning,

like flipping that mindset on its head

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and going from, I'm fed up in this

role to actually what can I learn?

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What can I take from

every day in this role?

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And it really does help.

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Jacqui: Brilliant.

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One final question before we wrap up,

so you talked about this process of

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figure out how long you've got left,

take away five to seven years and

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figure out what you recognize would

be important for you at that point,

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role, business, all of that stuff.

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And from there, you said often there's

actually only maybe two or three moves.

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It doesn't have to be lots

and lots of moves to get from

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where you are to that thing.

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Once people have done that bit, how do you

then help them make that decision about

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whether to make a move and if so, when?

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Because I think for a lot of people,

if they've been doing that reflection,

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there's still that question of, okay,

so maybe I know now what I'm heading

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towards, maybe I know that perhaps it's

a bit closer than I think, or maybe

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it's the opposite and I haven't got

as much time as I think and I need to

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think about it sooner rather than later.

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But how do they make that final decision?

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bit of decision about what type

of move to look for and when.

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Pam: That's a really good point

, because it is now that I've got all

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of this, all of these great thoughts

going on and I've got a better

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plan, it's when do I make that move?

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And for me, it's, You probably should

start thinking about making that

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move while you're thinking about

it, because you'll be motivated

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to get into that job search.

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And the first part of your job search

is going to be getting yourself

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set up and making sure that you are

positioning yourself in the market.

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So CV, LinkedIn, all of that good stuff.

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So when you start thinking about it.

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Start updating those documents, then what

you can do then is start having a look

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at what is around and looking on the job

boards, maybe speaking to some recruiters,

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testing out your network, you can start

easing yourself into it and doing it

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that way also means there's no real

pressure on you and you get that time.

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To really think through what you're doing.

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You're not just throwing a CV

together and getting it out there.

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You can start, as you start talking

through your experience, I always find

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that you'll go, Oh, that's something else.

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And it's not on my CV.

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So when you're giving yourself that.

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Time and space to start that job search

and start that exploration period.

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You're also opening up your mind and

basically helping yourself to get all of

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the good stuff that might be missing into

things like your CV and onto LinkedIn

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and also documented for interview prep.

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So as soon as you start thinking

about it, start getting yourself

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prepared, start thinking about

everything we've talked about, on

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last week's podcast and this one.

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And.

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Start just exploring, see what's out

there and start just testing the water.

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Even if that is in the form of

applying for a role, there's no

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harm in testing the water ever.

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Get, just get yourself set up and

start getting yourself out there.

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Jacqui: I remember a career coach that I

worked with when I was employed and Having

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a similar discussion around timing and she

fed back to me, which was really true and

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I hadn't recognized it until that point.

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My tendency was to stay too long and

often I did that because I valued the

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relationships that I'd built in roles and

so I would stay too long, the detriment

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of my career because I like the people

and had good relationships and I think

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it's great advice to be open and to be

exploring and inquisitive and curious

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and look for things that appeal at a time

when you're not desperate to make a move.

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Because how you present as a candidate,

when we go all the way back to some

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of the conversations we've had about

the importance of recruitment being

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a two way process, so much easier for

you to genuinely go into a process

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as a two way thing and I'm only

going to make the move if I feel

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that this is definitely right for me.

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If you are still happy where you are.

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If you wait until the point that

you're unhappy where you are and

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where you are hating the alarm

clock going off every morning.

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Then you have to do more of that

work around your mindset and

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being able to focus on your job

search as opposed to if you do it

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earlier with less pressure on you.

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So I would, from my own experience

in my career wish, wish I'd have

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had that advice 15 or so years ago.

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So, thank you for sharing that framework.

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And if anybody that is listening would

like to work with Pam, if you've got

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to that point where you recognize that

you do need to make a move and you

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want to do that sooner rather than

later, then Pam has an amazing program

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called the Job Search Accelerator,

which has phenomenal results.

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So if you are looking for some of

that support in your job search around

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the practicalities of getting your

profile together around finding the

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right things and making sure that you

are prepped properly for interview,

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then the program covers all of that.

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If you're at that slightly earlier, more

explorative stage of wanting to create the

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clarity, then we can absolutely help with

that as well so do just drop us a message.

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Thank you for listening.

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And we will be back next

week with another episode.

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We have done loads of planning

ourselves for the content and the

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episodes that we know that we want to

cover during the course of this year.

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But as ever, we love adapting that

and ensuring that we cover the

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things that you like to listen to.

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So if there are any topics that you would

like us to cover or anything that will

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be helpful, then please do let us know.

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And if you could drop us a

rating or review on your favorite

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podcast platform of choice.

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That really does help to get us

seen and heard by new listeners

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who potentially also need to

take ownership of their career.

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Thank you so much for listening and

we'll catch you again next time.