Ep 82 – Setting Boundaries: A Leader’s Guide to Saying No Without Burning Bridges

Hello and welcome to this week's episode.

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Today we are talking about a topic

that we know will be incredibly

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relatable for a lot of you out

there and that is how to say no.

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So we're talking about how to create

boundaries and say no but without burning

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bridges because Saying no can feel hard

and very often it feels hard and it feels

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awkward because you worry about the impact

on the relationship or how someone else

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might perceive you if and when you say no.

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Pam, this is a really

interesting one, isn't it?

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Because, certainly, When I was trying

to think about some of the examples and

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what would be most relatable, I know I

was like my whole aura kind of says, no,

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on my behalf, this is not something that

I find a real challenge, but equally,

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I know that for so many of my clients,

this is something where they feel they

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can feel themselves almost getting sucked

into the vortex of saying yes to things

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that they actually want to say no to.

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So how was it for you in your career?

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Were you a.

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a yes person, a people pleaser, or

were you not quite good for saying no?

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Pam: I think at the start, I was very much

on the side of being a people pleaser.

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I didn't want to say no.

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And I always remember when one of one

of my managers who I thought was, an

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absolutely amazing leader, she said

to me, Pamela, no is a full sentence.

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And you need to realize that.

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And that for me was

like, a huge eye opener.

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I wasn't that far out of university.

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I was still learning.

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I wanted to make a great impression.

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I didn't want to miss any opportunities.

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I wanted to do everything.

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Like I was trying to do everything and

I didn't really have any boundaries.

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And we've talked about

boundaries before on the podcast.

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And It was very busy.

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Let's just say that I just literally

never had a moment to think because

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I was constantly taking on new things

and I really struggled with saying no.

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And when I reflected on that later

in my career, it really came from

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a place of how others perceived me.

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And I didn't want to disappoint people.

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I didn't want to come across

as, not good at my job.

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Some people couldn't do.

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All of the stuff because, who even

was I, if I couldn't do all of

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the stuff and I really struggled

with it at the start of my career.

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And then as well after my lovely manager

said to me, no, it's a full sentence.

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And I asked this, I was like it's not.

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Actually, it's just one word and it's

a really difficult one to say, when

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people are coming at you with all the

different requests, it is the hardest

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thing to say, and that was where

I suppose I had to start flexing,

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almost I'd probably say my no muscle.

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Because you have to start saying no to

things in order to feel comfortable and

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confident about yourself in doing that.

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And that was a huge turning point for me.

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And that was very early on in my career.

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And there was still times, as time

went on that, I would think if I

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say no to this, what does that mean?

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What, what are going to be the

consequences or the impacts?

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And I didn't want to damage

my reputation at all.

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So there was plenty of times when.

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I probably still said yes when the

answer should have still been no, but

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I was really focused on putting those

boundaries in place and saying no a lot

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more when it was necessary and it did

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Jacqui: help.

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It's so interesting hearing you describe

that it sets off the neuroscience geek in

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me because that element that you describe

that is so relatable of what will other

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people think what will it mean about me if

I say no, what will the consequences be?

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Will I be perceived as I can't hack it.

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I can't handle everything.

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Will I be perceived as

stubborn or resistant?

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Will I be perceived as

being bolshie or rude?

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There's so many different

thoughts and emotions that I

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think run through people's head.

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And to give a bit of context in terms

of how our brains work is that we

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as humans are wired for connection.

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And in evolutionary terms.

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More so even for women that element of

if you weren't part of a tribe, if you

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weren't accepted, if you weren't in the in

crowd, then you were potentially at risk.

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If you were living out in the

wild and, your children were with

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you, you were reliant on community

and on connection with other

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people for your physical safety.

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And so the way our brains have

evolved is that we still feel that.

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Risk associated if we think other people

are going to judge us, because although

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we're not at risk necessarily, although,

we're certainly not at physical risk.

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If somebody judges us, your brain still

creates the same emotions on the basis

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of if you feel judged or if you feel like

somebody is going to perceive you in a

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way that you don't want to be perceived.

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So it's a real kind of powerful.

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element, isn't it?

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And that aspect that you describe

of flexing your no muscle and

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getting to the point of that being

a little bit more comfortable

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is also about breaking a habit.

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It's also about understanding

that maybe the consequences

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aren't that dramatic after all.

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So how did you go about

starting to flex that no muscle?

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What would you say to somebody who

is in, so the client that I described

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where I messaged her and said, this is

something that I'm looking for relatable

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examples of, and I'm drawing a blank.

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An example that she gave was accepting

a meeting request where she needs

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to be on site is several hours away,

but she's in a probation period.

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She's new in a role.

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That's why we're working together.

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And so she doesn't want to

say no to her boss because.

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There's that element of, being like

obstinate or not being flexible

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or so it very much feels like it's

related to what you're describing.

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So if my client were in front of you,

what would you be saying to her as to how

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could she start to flex the no muscle?

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Pam: I think the key thing is first

of all, just making sure that you know

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what you need to deliver in your role,

because it's so easy when you're not

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clear on what you need to deliver and

what the overall objectives are for

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yourself, for the team, for the business.

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It's easy to just keep taking on

more and more stuff and get pulled in

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different directions and, be dragged

into meetings that you don't need to

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go to, or at least, be on site for.

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So I think the first thing is making

sure that you're really clear on

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what it is that you need to deliver.

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And then the next thing is then looking

at, okay, this thing that you are now

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asking me to do, Does this add value?

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Does this help me achieve my objectives?

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Does this help me drive

the business forward?

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Or actually, are you just

asking me to be there?

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There's no real purpose to the meetings.

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You just want me to show my face.

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What is the point of me going?

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And you can ask that in a really nice way.

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What is the purpose of the meeting?

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What input do you need from me?

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And then once you understand that,

you can then make a call on whether

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this is just information that you

can send into the meeting, into the

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meeting notes, into the meeting report,

whatever format that is happening in.

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And you can also find out, is it

really imperative that you are there

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in person to sit around that table?

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Or could you join?

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By phone at a specific time,

or could you join by zoom?

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There's so many different ways

now, like we're experts now

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aren't we at working remotely?

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That's probably one of the only

benefits of COVID isn't it, that

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we're now experts at working remotely.

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So it is about just finding

out, what is the purpose, what

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input do you need from me?

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And then you make a call then on how

you proceed and what is necessary.

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Jacqui: And I think another thing I

would add to that is that you can propose

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alternatives that work better for you.

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So in that instance, you could

ask, those questions about what's

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the purpose of the meeting?

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We talked about this in the

episodes recently about reducing

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your time spent in meetings.

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You could ask the question

of what's the purpose?

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What does my contribution need to be?

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Do I need to be on site?

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But also You could ask that

question that says, you've put a

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meeting request in for this day.

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I'm due to be in the

office the following week.

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Given the length of the journey,

can we try and combine getting

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some time together when I'm going

to be in the office already?

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And that's presenting an alternative

solution that And who knows on the details

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of circumstances, whether it was other

people to the meeting, whether that

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might be possible or not, but it's, I

think sometimes saying no, it's hard,

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but presenting an alternative solution

can make that feel a bit easier because

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you're giving someone something that

they can say yes to rather than, It, it

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being a kind of Oh, and now I'm going

to have to ask and they might say no,

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and then I'll feel even more awkward.

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Pam: Yeah.

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And it is, it's just about being the

most effective in your role, isn't it?

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And I think, if you understand what

you need to deliver and you're checking

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in on, You know what they need,

then it's really, it almost makes it

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like it simplifies it, doesn't it?

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I think that's the thing.

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It just simplifies everything.

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So you're not left feeling uncomfortable

because in that situation where that

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person is in the probation period,

that can be really scary because what

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if I say no to a meeting and they

think bad of me, what if that affects

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them keeping me on at the end of the

probation, like there's all of that stuff

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that goes through your head as well.

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And then.

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If you're not in a probation period,

then maybe you'd be thinking about

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your reputation or, what you'll

miss out on in that meeting.

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But ultimately it is just about kinds

of knowing your place and making sure

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that you're making decisions that

will benefit you and the business

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so that you are achieving and you

are driving the business forward.

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Jacqui: And I think it's important

as well to recognize The short term

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pain for long term gain of saying no,

if saying no is difficult for you,

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you can say yes to something that

you don't really want to say yes to.

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What then comes with saying yes is

short term, you haven't had to say no.

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So you've got a tick in the box that

you haven't had to do the awkward thing.

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But then sometimes the resentment that

can come from that can, Go on, if in

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that situation where you've said yes

to, so thinking about pay rises, for

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example, for promotions, when I have

clients that are working towards a

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promotion, they will often say yes

to the package that's been offered

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because it would feel uncomfortable

to say no or to ask for more.

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And so they'll say, Yes to something

that they don't want to say yes to, and

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then they're kicking themselves three

or six months down the line when they

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find that so and so in the equivalent

position in a, different area is on

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five grand or ten grand more than them.

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So I think it's reminding yourself that,

okay, I want to say, no to this, or I

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want to have a boundary around this, I

could just go with what gets me through

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and accept it, but that's actually going

to come with longer term consequences in

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terms of, I will be frustrated, I will

be resentful, I'll be annoyed by this.

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So actually.

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If, at least if I've tried, even if it's

not successful, then at least I've tried

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to do it the way that I want to do it

or to say no or whatever that may be.

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Pam: Yeah, and I think that does

really make a difference as well.

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I worked with a guy like years ago

who said no to everything completely.

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Absolutely everything.

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There was no give or take,

and it was always a no.

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And then he would then go and

find out the information and

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then decide if it was a yes.

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So like the total extreme opposite,

just no to absolutely everything,

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every meeting, every request for

support and all of the rest of it.

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And he said that he did that to make

sure that he was delivering and that

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He was able to control his time better

and all of that kind of stuff, but

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actually he got a bit of a reputation

for, for being a bit of a pain for

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not being involved in anything.

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Whereas if he'd have offered an

alternative and just say, or just

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simply ask, What do you need me for?

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What is the purpose?

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It would have made a huge difference and

he did have a real reputation and it got

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to the point where it was like, don't

even ask him because he'll just say no.

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There was no compromise at all.

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Jacqui: That compromise

element is so key, isn't it?

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And another area that's really

important is to consider not just

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what impact it has for you, if you say

yes, but also potentially for others.

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So one of the times that I think

people find it really hard to say

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no, like you were describing earlier

on, is when it comes to workload.

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So if you're asked to be involved in

something or deliver something, Then

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it can be hard to say no to your own

boss, but the consequence of that is

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then potentially either you're asking

more of your team or you're asking more

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of yourself and therefore you're less

able to support your team in other ways.

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So there's also that element of

really being aware of when you're

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saying yes to one thing, what

are you then also saying no to?

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Because in that example, you

haven't said no to your boss.

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You've taken on the extra

tasks or, the higher target or

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kicking off this project sooner.

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But then that's going to have a

consequence, whether that's for you

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personally, or whether that's for

others, or whether it's a combination

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of both, it will have a consequence.

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So what are you saying no to?

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No to, in order to say yes to your

boss, yes, I'll do the extra tasks.

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Because there's an implied no

that you haven't actually said.

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Pam: Yeah, and that's a real

that's a different way, isn't

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it, of thinking about it as well.

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And there's so much more to it,

isn't there, than just a simple no.

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There always is a lot more depth, and

I think, As a leader, as a manager,

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saying no is just something that we

definitely need to think more about

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doing and actually taking that action

and saying no, so that we do keep

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control of our workloads and all of

the other stuff that we need to do.

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And we're still able to

deliver for the business.

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Jacqui: And I think a final point

that I would probably add and

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it's only really on reflecting

as we're having this conversation

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that I've recognized some of that.

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How did I say no and was okay with that?

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And it's probably no

surprise coming from a coach.

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One tactic that I use was to ask

questions because If you reply to a

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request with questions, what you'll often

find is that the request isn't what you

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thought it was or it's not been thought

through, or there isn't an answer.

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And I still remember my boss was

going to a meeting and there was.

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A system change that was being required

and that we were in the planning

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stages for, and there was all of

this feedback where effectively I was

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putting my boss in the situation where

he read through it and was like, Oh

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my God, I am going to be so unpopular

having to say all of these things.

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And I was like, you won't have to say

all of those things because if you ask

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these questions, their answer will be no.

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And that will.

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Give us some thinking time.

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If you, for example, ask the question

in that situation, I think it was about

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how long would it take to develop this

functionality so that we can do this?

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So I'm not saying, no, we won't do that.

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I'm asking the question of the people

that are developing the system.

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How long will this depend?

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So it's not me being

obstructive and saying, no, we

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won't do that operationally.

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It was then this, the answer to that

question meant that, oh, it's not

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important enough for us to worry

about developing that functionality.

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So I didn't actually have to say no.

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And I think those types of situations,

when you ask for more clarity, when you

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ask for an understanding, when you ask

for When it comes to tasks, for example,

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a really helpful question can be, okay,

if I've got this last minute request,

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the chaos boss episode, can you just

can you just do this within 48 hours?

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Okay.

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These were the things that were

on my priority list for this week.

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Are you okay for those not to happen so

that we can meet the deadline for this?

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Oh, and suddenly there's a rethink on how

important the can you just thing really

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is because of it means that won't happen.

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So yeah, I think asking questions in

return can often be a way to actually get.

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The other person to recognize that maybe

what they'd asked for or what you wanted

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to say no to isn't required or isn't

such a priority as they may be implied.

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Pam: Yeah, and that is

absolutely spot on, isn't it?

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Because those can you just

requests can really pile up.

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And if you are a yes person, you are

going to be bombarded, inundated,

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drowning in those tasks before

you know it, aren't you, really?

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Jacqui: It is really challenging

to pull yourself back out of those.

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That kind of brings us to the

end of this week's episode.

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We hope that has been helpful.

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If you are that person who does struggle

and potentially has loads of demands

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placed on you as a result do message

us, connect with us, let us know whether

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you've tried any of these tactics and how

you find them when you put them into play.

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And please do share this with anyone

that you know may tend towards being

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a people pleaser and let them know.

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Benefit from the guidance too.

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We love recording these episodes

and we would really appreciate it.

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be back with another episode next week.