Ep 79 – Reduce Meeting Overload: 4 Ways to Cut Down on Unnecessary Meetings

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode.

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Today, we are talking about how to

reduce the time spent in meetings.

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And this is a response to a

specific question that came in

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around how much time is too much.

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And I suppose, what's

normal in a leadership role.

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So we thought this is definitely

something that we should discuss because

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we all know meetings, there's so many

meetings, there's meetings for meetings,

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and the meetings can really take up

a huge chunk of time and really stop

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you from being effective in your role.

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So we're going to unpack

it all today, aren't we?

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So Jackie, let's.

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kick off with why is spending so

much time in meetings such an issue?

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Jacqui: There's a number of

factors that come into this.

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So sometimes there is genuinely an issue

in that so much of your time is spent in

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meetings that you don't then have time

to do the other elements of your role.

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But also it's because time

in meetings can feel like a

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drain rather than an energizer.

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It doesn't feel like meetings

are always productive.

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It feels that you can be spending so

much time paying back to back in meetings

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that you don't even have time to think.

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So when you do have time, that's not in

meetings, your brain's just trying to

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recuperate and get back to an even keel.

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So I think some of it is genuinely

about how much time is reasonable

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and how should that time be spent?

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And some of it is about having better

meetings so that time actually feels

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productive and delivers a result

rather than just creates busy work.

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Pam: Yeah, definitely.

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And I think that's a thing, isn't it?

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Because when you are going through the

week and there's so many meetings, it

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does really stop you from having that

space to think and the space to do

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the other work that you need to do.

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So I suppose if we're looking at meetings

generally, like how long is too long?

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What is or what should a normal

amount of meetings look like?

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It aren't, if you look

at a week in isolation.

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Jacqui: And it was interesting

because when this question came in,

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there was quite a varied response.

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And when you look at the stats about

what is normal, that was really reflected

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in the responses to this question.

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So I think first off, it's important to

say it varies hugely depending upon your

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role, depending upon your level, depending

upon your company or organization.

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But as a rule of thumb, if you are

becoming more senior in your career,

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then you should probably expect that

the more senior you become, the bigger

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the proportion of your working week

that will be spent within meetings.

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So at an initial management level, you

can probably expect give or take 20 to

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40%, probably 25 to 30 is about typical.

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If you're a leadership level,

you're moving from a management

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role up to a leadership level.

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Then you're probably looking

closer between 40 and 50.

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And if you're at a very senior level,

if you're CEO, C suite type level,

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then you probably talking in excess

of 50 and maybe around 60 to 70

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percent of your working week will

be spent in meetings of some kind.

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And those meetings can be brief

meetings, they can be one to one

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meetings, they can be project meetings,

they can be strategic meetings.

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There's a whole raft of different types

and formats and lengths of meetings that

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will make up that overall number, but

probably rule of thumb, I think those

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feel that they've been fairly reflective

with most of my clients and with responses

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that I've seen from others as well.

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Pam: Yeah.

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And that does sound like, a

fair kind of split depending

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on the level that you're in.

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And I suppose that the other thing is.

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If you're thinking all I do is spend

my time in meetings, am I actually

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spending too long in meetings or is

this just because it's the level that

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I'm at and the job that I'm doing?

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So what would you say the signs are?

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That you're spending too long in

meetings, like what can you look for and

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start like really, digging a little bit

deeper and thinking, am I spending too

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long or is this just part of my role?

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Jacqui: So the seven signs, and when

I dig with clients or talk to people

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in leadership development workshops,

these are some of the things that I

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encourage people to think about as

signs that potentially they could

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reduce the time spent in meetings.

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First and foremost is if there's no

opportunity in your calendar, we've

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talked so many different episodes

about the importance of blocking

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time and having good quality thinking

time within your working week.

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And if you're meetings are chopped here,

there, and everywhere in your diary.

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And your week is so full that you are

not having opportunity for focus time.

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Then that's a sign that either you

need fewer meetings or you need to

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organize when and how those meetings

are structured differently to be

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able to create that thinking time.

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So I think that's the first sign.

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And that's often, I think, instinctively,

where people ask that question of

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themselves, it's often that sense of,

I just feel so busy with meetings,

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I've got no time to do anything else.

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So I think that's often the first

sign that people would notice.

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Another pattern that I see, and

particularly as people get more senior,

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is when all of your actual work is done

before or after regular office hours.

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So you feel like your only opportunity for

focus time is before nine or after five or

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whatever the equivalent working hours are.

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So you're doing work once all the

meetings are finished and in theory,

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when the working day is finished, and

that's certainly a pattern again, that

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I see repeated time and time again.

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Then you've got the things where you

want to be able to plan a meeting.

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But actually your calendar is so chocker

that, maybe there's two or three of you

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that want to meet, but because everybody's

diary is so chocker, you look in two

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or three weeks down the line before you

can actually find a suitable meeting

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time where everybody can get together.

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So these are some of the things that

kind of start to come to the fore.

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You've then got things like frustration

or burnout, where I remember an

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HR director talking to me and

saying, I feel like human pinball.

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I'm just literally pinging

from meeting to meeting.

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My entire day is back to back meetings.

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And then you end up with this kind of

frustration with burnout with your mind

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is wandering in one meeting because

you're thinking about the next, or

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you're thinking about the last one.

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So you're not present in the

meetings that you are actually in.

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Or then you might be going to

meetings where you're listening, but

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you're not actually contributing or

gaining any value from being there.

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So the time that you're spending

in meetings is not adding value

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by you being there or giving

you value by you being there.

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And then the last couple is, again,

meeting Groundhog Day, where you're

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listening to that same conversation time

and time again, and you're having maybe

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regular meetings or update meetings,

and it is just like Groundhog Day.

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Time is, you're hearing the same things,

and things are just not moving on.

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And another one that I've probably

only really recognized more recently

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with clients is this pattern of

having huge amounts of your time when

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you're not in meetings is preparing

for the meetings that you are in.

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So this can be preparing detailed

reports or board packs, and it

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can actually be reading all the

material or kind of reviewing all the

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material that has been put together

for other peoples contributions

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within those meetings as well.

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So if a huge amount of your time

outside meetings is doing those

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things, then that's a sign that between

that and the actual meetings, you

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probably haven't got much of the time.

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Pam: Yeah.

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And I think that's the thing, isn't it?

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Like when you've got loads of meetings in

and then the meetings just seem to come

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back around really quickly, don't they?

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And then you panic and thinking,

I still haven't done the actions.

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From the last meeting, because

there hasn't been enough

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time and it's hard, isn't it?

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Trying to refocus.

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And I suppose you get yourself

stuck in that cycle of just carrying

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on, keep going, keep, pushing on.

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And I suppose this is

a good point, isn't it?

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To take a breather and go, okay.

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Am I, can I relate to any of

those signs and what can I do?

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So I suppose the next thing

to talk about really is.

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What can you do if you relate or you

recognize any of these signs and you

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realize that you're spending too much

time in meetings, what can you do?

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Jacqui: I have a framework for this.

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There are four D's that I talk about

that can be approaches that you can

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use and in an ideal world you'll use

Several of these rather than just

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one, but if we break them down one

by one and explore each one first.

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So the first is to ditch, and this

is about looking in your calendar.

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And particularly this tends

to be the meetings that are

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perhaps your own meetings that

you've set up or team meetings.

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That you have with members of your

team and it's looking at what is the

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purpose of these meetings and how

effective are these meetings and do

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they still need to be in the diary?

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So the kind of simplest way to

free up time from meetings is to

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remove unnecessary meetings from

your calendar and that can be.

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Looking, so in particular, I

encourage people to look at recurring

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meetings and to look at, are those

meetings serving their purpose?

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Because a lot of recurring meetings get

put in, they, like you've just described

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so perfectly, roll around really quickly.

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And often there isn't necessarily

a clear purpose for each one.

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It's just been put in

there as regular time.

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They.

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Don't necessarily always feel productive

and it can be that you need the

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meeting, but you don't need it as often.

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So for example, it could be that when

you started working somewhere, you

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might want to have a team meeting

every week or every other week with the

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members of your team, because there's

a lot of stuff to get yourself up to

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speed on and to build relationships.

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So we did the episode previously

about how not to have shit meetings.

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And one of the things we talked about

within that was the framework of pop,

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which is purpose, outcomes, and process.

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And that means starting and understanding

for every meeting in your calendar.

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That could be, there should be

a clear purpose, a clear reason.

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Why that meeting is being held.

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And if that's not the case or

it's shifted, then review it,

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change the frequency, ditch

it altogether if needs be.

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Pam: Yeah.

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And that absolutely

makes sense, doesn't it?

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Because I suppose that is,

that's the first point, isn't it?

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Where you write what is necessary

and what is unnecessary.

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Because until you do that

analysis on the meetings that

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you have in, it's hard to know.

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What takes priority, what is important,

what actually needs to happen, and

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once you've analyzed the meetings

and what happens within those, that

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can also be the basis of starting

to push back and ask questions.

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And are these meetings really necessary?

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Do we need to have them on a weekly

basis, could it be a monthly update

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or whatever it is, but it just

gives you that space doesn't it

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to think, is it necessary or not.

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Jacqui: And in terms of purpose, one

thing that I heard fairly recently, but

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I really is that a meeting should have

predominantly one of four purposes.

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So it should either be to learn,

to decide, to bond, or to do.

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Pam: I love that.

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Jacqui: It's simple, isn't it?

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We love simple.

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Pam: Brilliant, yeah.

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Jacqui: And so if you recognize that

with your recurring meetings, like the

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example I gave in the early days with a

newly formed team, it can be important

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to have more frequent contact in order

to Have more of that bonding time.

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And certainly when everybody was

working remotely, for example,

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it might have been that people

didn't have that catch up time.

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So you may be needed some of that bonding

time within the week that was scheduled.

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So that everybody did come

together because you could go weeks

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without everybody being together.

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It doesn't necessarily

remain the same over time.

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And similarly with things like one

to ones with your team members.

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It might be that you don't need

those as often with one person

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as you do with somebody else.

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So many of those things can change over

time and that's where recurring meetings

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are such a good opportunity to review

because a lot of these things that just

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happen repeatedly had one purpose that

they were serving at the point that they

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were created and that purpose maybe isn't

needed or isn't needed as frequently.

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So yeah, be really clear on the

purpose and make sure that you

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only have meetings that do have

a reason for them to be needed.

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Pam: Yeah, definitely.

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So what's the next thing

then that that people can do?

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Jacqui: So the next one is about

looking at declining meetings.

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So this is the meetings where

they're not your meeting.

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You're not the person that's

setting up or running the meeting.

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You don't own it as such, but where you

are looking at, do I need to spend time?

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And a lot of the people that I work

with are really nice people and

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they work with other nice people.

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And what can happen when people are nice

and they get on and they're agreeable

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is that they want to involve people

and what that can then translate to

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is that you came to a meeting once

and then you're invited to every

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time that meeting happens again.

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This isn't necessarily that you

need to just start declining

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meetings and saying to people,

not coming to your stupid meeting.

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Bye.

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This is about being clear on again,

the purpose, not just the purpose

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for the meeting, but the purpose

for you being at the meeting.

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And if you're not needed for that meeting,

or if you're not needed for the whole

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of that meeting, is there a different

way that you can input to that meeting?

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And.

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I think sometimes you can feel like

you've got to accept a meeting request,

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but you don't even really know why

you're accepting that meeting request.

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You don't know what the agenda is.

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You don't know what, why you're

needed as part of that meeting.

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And this can happen in organizations

where meeting culture is just, we just

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put meetings in and there is no clarity.

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But yeah, I think it's important that

you understand what your reason is for

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being there and are willing to challenge.

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If you don't believe you need to be there,

then let that person give you a reason.

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Be open to, you might need to either

prepare or provide something for it.

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Be there for the whole meeting

or be there for part of it.

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There's a real big opportunity for

a lot of people to highlight that

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if I'm not adding value and I'm not

gaining value, then my time will

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be better spent somewhere else.

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Pam: Yeah, definitely.

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And I think with that as well, one

of the things that I used to do is I

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used to ask, the question what do you

actually need from me in this meeting?

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And where possible, I would maybe send

one of my direct reports so that they

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could go and be the presence in the room.

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They could bring back any information

and it was a great development

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opportunity for them as well.

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So I suppose that's always another option.

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As well, if they just want your presence

in the room for whatever reason, that

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is just maybe so that they're not

repeating things or whatever, at least

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then it gives you the opportunity to

help support someone else's development

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while providing that presence without

completely stopping the starting point.

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Decline in that meeting as well.

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Jacqui: Yeah.

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And that can be really helpful for,

there are other people sometimes who

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want to be in those meetings and who are

more relevant to be in those meetings.

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Sometimes it is better for someone

who is closer to the detail to be

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able to give input in a meeting.

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And I've certainly been the person that's

been in meetings where I'm asked questions

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and I'm I need to talk with my team to

be able to answer that question for you.

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So definitely it can be better for someone

else to be there and be a part of that.

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And like you say, that can also

feel a real positive for somebody

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else that they can represent.

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You or represent the team or just

represent themselves and have

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that opportunity to interact with

people who are maybe from other

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functions or a more senior level.

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So yeah, completely support that.

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Pam: Fab.

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So the third one, this is my favorite

part of the, of your framework with this.

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So what's the third

thing that people can do?

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Jacqui: So the third thing is

about designing the meetings.

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So again, this comes back to.

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The meetings where you have that

capability, where you have that

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opportunity to be able to design the

meetings so that they are more productive,

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so that they are more energizing.

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And a lot of this we did

cover when we talked about

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how not to have shit meetings.

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They're very simple things.

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So having that framework,

having that clarity on, What's

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the purpose for the meeting?

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What outcomes do we need to have and

what structure does it, it need to

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work to having some clarity as well

about expectations of the prep that

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might be required so that other people

know what they can bring so that you

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can move that conversation forward.

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Through the meetings.

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So particularly if you need to make

decisions within meetings, which is

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often the purpose of meetings, then if

everybody is prepared and understands

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what decisions need to be made, then

that's really helpful to frame it.

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And on that note, a real specific

with this that I really like is when

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you're framing the agenda, instead

of having discussion points, have

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questions that need to be answered.

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So instead of writing an agenda and

circulating it and saying we're going

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to discuss XYZ project, be specific

about what are the decisions that

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need to be made within this meeting.

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On that project.

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So it could be about the resource

capability needed for the next phase

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of this project and which areas of

the business are going to be needed.

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It could be about.

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I don't know, the operational

challenges and sharing an understanding

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of the operational challenges

that we're going to have when we

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get to the implementation phase.

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But when you frame your agenda

points as questions, creates.

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a brain's naturally hook into

that sense of, Oh, what do

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I think about that question?

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And your brain naturally starts

to try and answer that question.

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So instead of just reading it as it's

a discussion point and your brain just

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files it as okay Yeah, we'll have a

chat about it on the day It gets people

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preparing in a way that doesn't feel

like you're asking them to do work.

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Pam: Yeah, I love that.

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And I think one of the other things

as well that that I like to do is

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if there is a discussion point.

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So if the, if it is just a, an update,

put in a time limit against that, so that

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if somebody is there and it's their job

to give an update, it's like a 60 seconds

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update or a two minute update, and they

know exactly then how long they've got.

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Because I think sometimes meetings can

run over because people will run away

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with their updates and I absolutely

love the switching it to questions

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rather than just discussion points.

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And I think the more

specific that you can be.

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The easier the meetings will be the

more enjoyable meetings will be because

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you'll know you'll go into that meeting,

it's got structure, you know what to

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expect, you know the updates aren't

going to run away with themselves.

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You can go into that meeting

in a real positive mindset.

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I think sometimes, especially when

you're dealing with a loss of meetings,

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it can become quite negative and

you're like, Oh, not another meeting.

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Or I don't particularly like this

meeting because I know it goes on and on.

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And I don't know where it stops.

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And all I can think about is all of

the stuff that I'm not doing while I'm

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thinking, while I'm sat there listening to

people droning on about different things.

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So I absolutely love that reframe.

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Jacqui: And I think when you're

designing your own meetings as well, a

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big part of is reflect on how specific

am I being with other people about the

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contribution I would like them to make.

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So when we were talking about declining

meetings, we said, ask that question,

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what contribution do you want from me?

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What is it that you need from me?

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This way, when you're designing

meetings, you can avoid the need for

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that question to be asked, because you

can be really clear on this person needs

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to be there to make this contribution.

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And so often I have seen with clients

where they are going into meetings for

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the first time and they're apprehensive

because there's a real lack of clarity.

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So it is, give an update on.

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The marketing strategy, give

an update on the financial

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performance, give an update on this.

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And it's so broad.

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And so often then the question gets asked

of other people outside the business.

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What the hell shall I include?

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And in reality, Don't just ask

someone to give an update, be

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clear on what do you want to know?

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What questions do you want

answered from their segment?

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And that makes it so much quicker and

easier for them to prepare, freeze

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that their time outside of meetings,

cause they don't need to spend as long.

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It also makes it more relevant and

more interesting because you're only

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hearing the things that you actually

want to hear within that segment.

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segment.

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Pam: Yeah, I think that's perfect

because again, that just helps

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streamline those meetings, doesn't it?

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And it gives everybody the clarity

and it's just a total different

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way of running meetings, isn't it?

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Like the, most of the meetings that

we know I'm probably, I was going

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to say love, but I think most of the

meetings that we know and hate are the

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ones that run away with themselves.

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They're not specific.

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They've got no clarity that we worry about

going into that, once we're in there,

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we're thinking, when is this going to end?

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This is not relevant to

me and all the rest of it.

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Whereas if it's really specific,

really punchy, it's just a totally

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different experience, isn't it?

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If you have got to do that many meetings

because they are all necessary for you

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to be there, at least if they're running

that way that they are really punchy

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and structured and enjoyable to be in.

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Jacqui: Yeah, absolutely.

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And I know our previous episode, I

remember having feedback from a listener

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who said every single meeting that they

put into other people's calendar now,

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they include in the invite, the purpose

of this meeting is, and it's They've

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really seen a difference in terms of

how they're perceived in the workplace,

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because it's impacting them and allowing

them to design their meetings better.

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But it's also been really helpful.

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And then people have started to adopt

that elsewhere in the organization

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because they've seen that and

gone, Oh, actually, I like that.

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I'm going to start using that myself.

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Pam: Yeah.

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And I think that really helps

as well with the attendance

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rates, because sometimes Yeah.

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People won't even ask you

what this meeting's about.

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They'll just go, Oh, I've got

too many things in this week.

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So I'm just going to decline it.

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And actually you might really

need that person there.

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So I think adopting that way of

doing things really helps because.

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If you know what you're going into,

if you know what your contribution

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is, then that makes it easier for you,

makes it easier for the people in the

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meeting, makes it easier for the host,

there's just so many different ways

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that you can make your life easier.

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If you have got to spend time

in meetings, make it simpler.

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It's that old saying, isn't it?

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Like work smarter rather than harder.

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And I suppose that is essentially

what we're saying with this.

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You've got to do it smarter

and it where you can.

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Reduce the time, and free up more time for

yourself so that you can make more impact.

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So I suppose overall, there's no downsides

to being more specific and being more

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intentional about the meetings that you

go to and the meetings that you attend.

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Also set up.

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So what is the final thing then?

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What is the fourth D in the framework?

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Jacqui: So the fourth day,

so your favorite was design.

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And my favorite is this one,

which is drive and drive

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improvement in meeting culture.

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And this, follows on from what I was

just saying about when one person

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improves how they design, then

actually that can start to get adopted.

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And I think often when people feel

really exhausted by how many meetings

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they're in and how much time they are

spending in meetings, it's because

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the meeting culture of the business or

organization as a whole is pretty poor.

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And so with this, it's about

looking at how can you influence

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and drive improvement in some

of the general principles.

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And there was some really, there've

been some really interesting studies

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around meetings and meeting culture.

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And one looked at the improvements

in productivity by having

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one day a week meeting free.

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And I think this ties back to that first

sign that we were talking about, that the

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sign you're spending too much time is when

you don't have opportunity for focus time.

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If you can even within your own team

have an agreement that we don't have

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meetings on a Friday or we don't have

meetings on a Thursday, whatever, it

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doesn't matter what day, then everybody

knows not to put those meetings in.

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And if you can seek to influence that

more broadly, then that starts to

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really create that situation where

there is a real different feeling.

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And if you, for example, share with

other people, how much of a difference

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it's made when you've looked at your

recurring meetings and reduced how many

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recurring meetings you're attending,

or you're asking that question of,

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What is the purpose of this meeting?

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What do you want me to contribute?

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All of those things start to

really help for you to be.

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Prompting questions, challenging

maybe, depends how you feel about

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the meeting culture more generally.

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And just some really simple things with

things like this that can become really

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good principles is just to make sure that

there is that clarity on every meeting in

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this organization should have an agenda.

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Every meeting should have note circulated

after, and you can do that now.

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We both use Fathom AI, which is

an artificial intelligence note

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taker, Teams has its own, Zoom has

its own there's numerous different

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pieces of software that can.

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Transcribe and summarize

notes and actions.

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So you don't have to have somebody

doing this as a big task, but what you

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can do is then make sure that people

that attended the meeting have got

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those done really quickly and easily so

that they can refer back to them, but

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also it can then allow you to do that.

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Keep people informed who perhaps

didn't need to be there, but do need

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to know the outcome from that meeting.

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So I think it's really looking

at opportunities to ask questions

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and be a role model and If you can

directly challenge and suggest how

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as an organization, we can start

to take some of these things and

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improve our overall meeting culture.

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Pam: Yeah, I think I absolutely love

that because I do feel like it will

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make a huge difference to everybody

that starts to think about doing

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this, starts to think about being

more intentional with their meetings.

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And it just frees up that time for

your own career development and giving

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yourself that, time and space to make

more of an impact within your role.

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So this is actually something that

we do under our catalyst brand.

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We deliver a whole range of career

skills workshops, and we can do

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this virtually, we can come on site.

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Your business and we can deliver

them face to face as well.

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And the meetings one, it's

always a really good workshop.

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People take a lot away from it and

generally will go away with a plan

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to run more effective meetings.

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So if you or your team requires

support around running effective

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meetings, then get in touch with us.

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And as usual, we hope you've enjoyed

listening to today's podcast and

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please do share it with anyone that

you think might also find it useful.

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And don't forget to rate and review

us on your favorite podcast platforms.

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And we'll be back next

week with another episode.